Origins of the term temple dha?

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2006, 09:06 PM

This question has been niggling me for some time, so much so I have to air it. There is something about the term temple dha that I find a bit, I am not looking for a fight, but I have to say a bit collector-ish. Who came up with this term? Is there recorded and photographic evidence that there is such a thing, if so I will bite my tongue. I bring this up as I have a dha knife that to me is a fighting knife without doubt. It differs from the standard "temple dha" in several ways. The blade is shorter, it has a clipped or false edge, no story picture, and very different style pommel. I would be keen to hear dha news.

RhysMichael · 14th June 2006, 10:33 PM

Mark probably has much more to offer on this but I believe the term comes from thier use in Burmese spirit rutuals.

PUFF · 15th June 2006, 03:12 AM

I do not know what people in Burma do. But in Thailand, Theravadin buddhist do not use knife or alike in religious ritual. Although some knives were blessed by medic shaman or Sangha (monk), they are mainly used as a talisman to protect ones from evil. Some shaman use the a blessed knife in non-religious ceremonies such as cut off a string of newly constructed temple marks (Bhramin/Buddhist mixed ceremonies). The blessed knives mostly are drop-point, similar to Meed Morh in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2451

The knife in the picture above could be a Burmese dressing knife, worn in social ceremonies.

Mark · 15th June 2006, 04:30 AM

I am very hesitant to enter this discussion, since I have a dha of this type advertised on Swap. I'll just say a couple things.

(1) I can't honestly say where I came across the term "temple dha;" it was very early on in my collecting career, so it was a term that I accepted without much question, but not one I found myself in the literature.

(2) I recently found two photos on Corbis.com (go to www.corbis.com & search "burma sword"), QU002257 and QU002277, which show participants in the Festival of the Spirits at Taungbyuon in Myanmar. They are both holding dha of this style, and the photo captions give some information on the Festival, as will a search of "Taungbyuon festival" on Google. Other than the photos, I don't know any specifics about the particular role the dha has in Nat (spirit) worship.

(3) Some elements of this style can be seen in an older sword in my collection (http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm) which depending on which inscribed date you read is either around 100 or 200 years old, so at the very least the style has some roots in older styles.

Andrew · 15th June 2006, 04:40 AM

Hi Tim,

I think "Temple Dha" is one of those imprecise self-perpetuating terms that has fallen into common use in the west. It's easier to say that than "a decorative Burmese sword with repouse'd white metal fittings and a poorly made blade with silver and/or copper wire koftgari typically depicting figures and text in Burmese".

When someone says "temple dha", I immediately know what they are referring to.

Not all swords of this design are cheap tourist or decorative weapons, but I suspect most examples now on the market are newly made for sale to tourists or for decoration. It does sound like you have one of the nice examples.

Puff has my expanded my understanding of Thai ceremonial sword use (thanks, Puff!). I also understand that some ethnic groups in the region (e.g. Mien and Kachin) do use dha in various ceremonies and blessings, and dha with blessings inscribed on the blade are known.

Unfortunately, I fear that until we can develop better contacts in Myanmar, definitive answers about Burmese "temple" swords will elude us.

Best,
Andrew

RhysMichael · 16th June 2006, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

I do not know what people in Burma do. But in Thailand, Theravadin buddhist do not use knife or alike in religious ritual. Although some knives were blessed by medic shaman or Sangha (monk), they are mainly used as a talisman to protect ones from evil. Some shaman use the a blessed knife in non-religious ceremonies such as cut off a string of newly constructed temple marks (Bhramin/Buddhist mixed ceremonies). The blessed knives mostly are drop-point, similar to Meed Morh in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2451

The knife in the picture above could be a Burmese dressing knife, worn in social ceremonies.

Thanks again Puff, I have been told that many of the swords have buddhist stories on them do you know anything about this ? Or again is this only an often repeated fable ?

PUFF · 17th June 2006, 06:32 AM

Unlike Burman, story etching on blades is not a common practice for Siamese.

Most of story etched blades are imported from Burma, then, being sold in a tourist market in ChiangMai. I 've never seen any Siamese blade with an etched story.

If there are some, they must be very rare and hard to find items

Ian · 17th June 2006, 05:31 PM

Thanks PUFF. It has been difficult to work out whether these dha were manufactured in Thailand or simply sold there. The N. Thailand (Chiang Mai) market for selling these swords seems to have been around for many years, but where they were made has been harder to determine. Do you know where in Burma they are made?

Ian.

PUFF · 24th November 2007, 10:05 AM

Some Lanna (northern Thailand) dressing knives...

http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25674

katana · 24th November 2007, 11:37 AM

Hi Puff,
unfortunately, the link you have posted opens the 'log in' page of the website.

PUFF · 24th November 2007, 03:02 PM

PUFF · 24th November 2007, 03:04 PM

PUFF · 24th November 2007, 03:11 PM

In case of you’re curious... those are not mine

IMO: They are not very old (19C-20C) and some of them has been retouched (skillful, though)

VANDOO · 24th November 2007, 03:55 PM

TO ME THE TERM TEMPLE WAS ASSOCIATED WITH SWORDS THAT WERE PRESENTED TO THE TEMPLE FOR SOME REASON OR ONES USED IN PROCESSIONS ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGIONS OR TEMPLES. SOME WERE NO DOUBT MADE FOR A SPECIFIC USE IN THE TEMPLE CEREMONYS. I HAVE READ ABOUT SWORDS BEING PRESENTED TO TEMPLES IN MANY ORIENTAL COUNTRYS, CHINA,JAPAN,ECT. PERHAPS THEY WERE PRESENTED TO MARK SOME HISTORIC EVENT OR TO ASK THE GODS FOR GOOD FORTUNE IN A WAR OR BATTLE OR AS THANKS FOR SUCESS, WEALTH AND LONG HEALTH. THERE ARE MANY REASONS TO MAKE AN OFFERING AT A TEMPLE AND ALSO MANY KINDS OF OFFERINGS FROM INSENCE, GOLD,FOOD,POEMS TO SWORDS.

I HAVE A LARGE EXAMPLE MADE IN RANGOON SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED IN PROCESSIONS AND HAVE SEEN OTHERS LIKE IT OVER THE YEARS. IT WOULD NOT BE A GOOD WEAPON DUE TO ITS SIZE AND POOR BALANCE BUT WOULD LOOK GOOD IN A PROCESSION. I SUSPECT THE FLASHY DHA MADE WITH THE INLAYED PICTURES ON THE BLADES AND LOW QUALITY SILVER OR WHITE METAL HANDLES AND SCABBARDS WERE MADE FOR DRESS OCCASIONS AND TO SELL TO TOURISTS. I HAVE SEEN A FEW ALSO THAT USED MORE EXPENSIVE FITTINGS AND DO NOT REALLY LOOK LIKE TOURIST PIECES SO THEY MAY BE PRESENTATION PIECES OR MADE FOR SOME OTHER IMPORTANT OCCASIONS. I SEEM TO REMBER A CUSTOM OF HANGING SMALLER SWORDS OUTSIDE THE DOOR OF YOUR HOUSE AT CERTAN TIMES AS A PROTECTIVE TAILSMAN.
WHAT A DRAG IT IS GETTING OLD! I KEEP LEARNING BUT SEEM TO BE FORGETTING FASTER THAN I LEARN THESE DAYS

Battara · 24th November 2007, 07:55 PM

Thank you Vandoo, very helpful. Also my understanding that the ones called "temple" pieces or priests pieces were small like these butm had figures carved in them, mostly from Myanmar (Burma).

paolo · 24th November 2007, 08:14 PM

Hi all,
This are the pics of my short dagger. The seller said it's from Burma. Your opinion?
Paolo

PUFF · 25th November 2007, 01:22 AM

IMO, the above piece come from Burman side. I do not know its use.

But it looks similar to Thai 's amulet knives. These following blades may also meet your "poor quality but not tourist" standard.

Example of "amulet" knives from central Thailand.
Made in mid 20C. The blades were blessed by Buddhist monk and generally used as spiritual object or protecting talisman by non-monk.

Battara · 25th November 2007, 08:59 PM

thanks Puff - I did not know that...

14th June 2006, 09:06 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Origins of the term temple dha? This question has been niggling me for some time, so much so I have to air it. There is something about the term temple dha that I find a bit, I am not looking for a fight, but I have to say a bit collector-ish. Who came up with this term? Is there recorded and photographic evidence that there is such a thing, if so I will bite my tongue. I bring this up as I have a dha knife that to me is a fighting knife without doubt. It differs from the standard "temple dha" in several ways. The blade is shorter, it has a clipped or false edge, no story picture, and very different style pommel. I would be keen to hear dha news. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 14th June 2006 at 09:18 PM.

24th November 2007, 08:14 PM	#16
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Thai or Burma ? Hi all, This are the pics of my short dagger. The seller said it's from Burma. Your opinion? Paolo Attached Images

25th November 2007, 01:22 AM	#17
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	IMO, the above piece come from Burman side. I do not know its use. But it looks similar to Thai 's amulet knives. These following blades may also meet your "poor quality but not tourist" standard. Example of "amulet" knives from central Thailand. Made in mid 20C. The blades were blessed by Buddhist monk and generally used as spiritual object or protecting talisman by non-monk. Last edited by PUFF; 26th November 2007 at 12:31 AM.

14th June 2006, 10:33 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Mark probably has much more to offer on this but I believe the term comes from thier use in Burmese spirit rutuals.

15th June 2006, 03:12 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I do not know what people in Burma do. But in Thailand, Theravadin buddhist do not use knife or alike in religious ritual. Although some knives were blessed by medic shaman or Sangha (monk), they are mainly used as a talisman to protect ones from evil. Some shaman use the a blessed knife in non-religious ceremonies such as cut off a string of newly constructed temple marks (Bhramin/Buddhist mixed ceremonies). The blessed knives mostly are drop-point, similar to Meed Morh in this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2451 The knife in the picture above could be a Burmese dressing knife, worn in social ceremonies.

15th June 2006, 04:30 AM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I am very hesitant to enter this discussion, since I have a dha of this type advertised on Swap. I'll just say a couple things. (1) I can't honestly say where I came across the term "temple dha;" it was very early on in my collecting career, so it was a term that I accepted without much question, but not one I found myself in the literature. (2) I recently found two photos on Corbis.com (go to www.corbis.com & search "burma sword"), QU002257 and QU002277, which show participants in the Festival of the Spirits at Taungbyuon in Myanmar. They are both holding dha of this style, and the photo captions give some information on the Festival, as will a search of "Taungbyuon festival" on Google. Other than the photos, I don't know any specifics about the particular role the dha has in Nat (spirit) worship. (3) Some elements of this style can be seen in an older sword in my collection (http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/0074.htm) which depending on which inscribed date you read is either around 100 or 200 years old, so at the very least the style has some roots in older styles.

15th June 2006, 04:40 AM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Tim, I think "Temple Dha" is one of those imprecise self-perpetuating terms that has fallen into common use in the west. It's easier to say that than "a decorative Burmese sword with repouse'd white metal fittings and a poorly made blade with silver and/or copper wire koftgari typically depicting figures and text in Burmese". When someone says "temple dha", I immediately know what they are referring to. Not all swords of this design are cheap tourist or decorative weapons, but I suspect most examples now on the market are newly made for sale to tourists or for decoration. It does sound like you have one of the nice examples. Puff has my expanded my understanding of Thai ceremonial sword use (thanks, Puff!). I also understand that some ethnic groups in the region (e.g. Mien and Kachin) do use dha in various ceremonies and blessings, and dha with blessings inscribed on the blade are known. Unfortunately, I fear that until we can develop better contacts in Myanmar, definitive answers about Burmese "temple" swords will elude us. Best, Andrew

17th June 2006, 06:32 AM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Unlike Burman, story etching on blades is not a common practice for Siamese. Most of story etched blades are imported from Burma, then, being sold in a tourist market in ChiangMai. I 've never seen any Siamese blade with an etched story. If there are some, they must be very rare and hard to find items

17th June 2006, 05:31 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,023	Thanks PUFF. It has been difficult to work out whether these dha were manufactured in Thailand or simply sold there. The N. Thailand (Chiang Mai) market for selling these swords seems to have been around for many years, but where they were made has been harder to determine. Do you know where in Burma they are made? Ian.

24th November 2007, 10:05 AM	#9
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Some Lanna (northern Thailand) dressing knives... http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25674

24th November 2007, 11:37 AM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Puff, unfortunately, the link you have posted opens the 'log in' page of the website.

24th November 2007, 03:02 PM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224

24th November 2007, 03:04 PM	#12
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224

24th November 2007, 03:11 PM	#13
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	In case of you’re curious... those are not mine IMO: They are not very old (19C-20C) and some of them has been retouched (skillful, though)

24th November 2007, 03:55 PM	#14
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TO ME THE TERM TEMPLE WAS ASSOCIATED WITH SWORDS THAT WERE PRESENTED TO THE TEMPLE FOR SOME REASON OR ONES USED IN PROCESSIONS ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGIONS OR TEMPLES. SOME WERE NO DOUBT MADE FOR A SPECIFIC USE IN THE TEMPLE CEREMONYS. I HAVE READ ABOUT SWORDS BEING PRESENTED TO TEMPLES IN MANY ORIENTAL COUNTRYS, CHINA,JAPAN,ECT. PERHAPS THEY WERE PRESENTED TO MARK SOME HISTORIC EVENT OR TO ASK THE GODS FOR GOOD FORTUNE IN A WAR OR BATTLE OR AS THANKS FOR SUCESS, WEALTH AND LONG HEALTH. THERE ARE MANY REASONS TO MAKE AN OFFERING AT A TEMPLE AND ALSO MANY KINDS OF OFFERINGS FROM INSENCE, GOLD,FOOD,POEMS TO SWORDS. I HAVE A LARGE EXAMPLE MADE IN RANGOON SAID TO HAVE BEEN USED IN PROCESSIONS AND HAVE SEEN OTHERS LIKE IT OVER THE YEARS. IT WOULD NOT BE A GOOD WEAPON DUE TO ITS SIZE AND POOR BALANCE BUT WOULD LOOK GOOD IN A PROCESSION. I SUSPECT THE FLASHY DHA MADE WITH THE INLAYED PICTURES ON THE BLADES AND LOW QUALITY SILVER OR WHITE METAL HANDLES AND SCABBARDS WERE MADE FOR DRESS OCCASIONS AND TO SELL TO TOURISTS. I HAVE SEEN A FEW ALSO THAT USED MORE EXPENSIVE FITTINGS AND DO NOT REALLY LOOK LIKE TOURIST PIECES SO THEY MAY BE PRESENTATION PIECES OR MADE FOR SOME OTHER IMPORTANT OCCASIONS. I SEEM TO REMBER A CUSTOM OF HANGING SMALLER SWORDS OUTSIDE THE DOOR OF YOUR HOUSE AT CERTAN TIMES AS A PROTECTIVE TAILSMAN. WHAT A DRAG IT IS GETTING OLD! I KEEP LEARNING BUT SEEM TO BE FORGETTING FASTER THAN I LEARN THESE DAYS

24th November 2007, 07:55 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you Vandoo, very helpful. Also my understanding that the ones called "temple" pieces or priests pieces were small like these butm had figures carved in them, mostly from Myanmar (Burma).

25th November 2007, 08:59 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	thanks Puff - I did not know that...