Need help by identification of a knife

Henk · 23rd December 2007, 09:23 PM

I have no idea what Santa left behind for me, but I think I do like it.
Length is 49 cm. The hilt looks horn to me and is transculent.
On the blade near the base is an engraving of a whale and just above the whale something that looks like the head of a dog.

My guess is that it comes from Asia.

Rich · 23rd December 2007, 10:03 PM

I doubt Asian just from the style. Can you post a clear picture of
the blade markings?

Rich S

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2007, 10:11 PM

Its been a while, but I've seen something similar that was I believe from coastal India, possibly Malabar coast.
I'd like to see more on the blade markings also.

carlos · 23rd December 2007, 10:18 PM

Seems colonial to me, maybe Cuba? Thanks
Carlos

Henk · 23rd December 2007, 11:06 PM

Jim, Rich,

This picture of the blade marking is the best I can do at the moment, I'm afraid. The marking is a bit worn out. Maybe because of the patina.
Honestly I doubt the marking is a clear mark of the maker.

fernando · 23rd December 2007, 11:30 PM

A dog?
I must be seeing things

.
To me, it looks like some person ( a lady ? ) mounting on the so said whale

.
That button on the handle ... is it fix or unscrewable ?
Are you sure is Asian, Jim ?
Not colonial, like Carlos sugests ?
Or even an African hunting knife, with a trade blade ?
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 24th December 2007, 12:19 AM

West coast India, to the south, Kerala. Basic similarities in motif resembling some piha kaetta, as well as the capstan.

VANDOO · 24th December 2007, 04:45 AM

IT LOOKS LIKE A MERMAID RIDING ON A DOLPHIN PLAYING A HARP TO ME. PERHAPS THE KNIFE IS FROM THE METERANEN AREA BUT SUCH DESIGNS WERE ALSO FOUND IN EUROPEAN COUNTRYS. EITHER WAY ITS A GRAND CHRISTMAS PRESENT, CONGRADULATIONS

Henk · 24th December 2007, 07:45 AM

Vandoo,

You're right. Now I see it too. It is a harp playing mermaid, riding a dolphin. The picture gives a more sharper image of the engraving than when you study it with your bare eyes. The tail of the mermaid is hardly visible and her head is not visible at all any more.

For the moment I go with Jim. The area of India makes sense to me. It has some piha kaetta similarities in its appearance.

Fernando, the button on the handle is fixed.

Thanks for your comments so far.

ingelred · 24th December 2007, 09:26 AM

Hello,

at the moment I have no literature at hand but I have sveral books, where this kind of knife is depicted. Accoring to these books these knives where made in the middle of the 19th century in Solingen for export to Middle and South America.

Greetings Helge

Gavin Nugent · 24th December 2007, 11:44 AM

Nice knife, I'd like something like that myself, I think it looks almost Spanish so maybe Cuba is not far off.....just a thought...Merry Christmas everyone!!!

Rich · 24th December 2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ingelred

Hello,

at the moment I have no literature at hand but I have sveral books, where this kind of knife is depicted. Accoring to these books these knives where made in the middle of the 19th century in Solingen for export to Middle and South America.

Greetings Helge

I would agree, European, but I was thinking English or Scandinavian, made
for the whaling trade - perhaps a whale butchering knife/ blubber knife??

Rich S

Henk · 24th December 2007, 07:26 PM

Helge,

When you have your books at your hand some pictures and maybe a description would be nice. I'm also curious to the scabbard of these knives.

By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS everybody!!!

RobT · 27th December 2007, 02:21 AM

Hi All,
I believe the sea creature is a dolphin and the rider is the mythological Greek musician Arion. The woodcuts in the vihuela book "Seys Libros del Delfin de Musica" by Narváez published at Valladolid in 1538 show, according to the playwright Thomas Heywood, "Arion on the Dolphin's backe, still fumbling on a gittern". (Apparently the publishers felt it necessary to replace Arion's traditional lyre with a vihuela.) If my identification is correct, it would seem to indicate that the blade was at least owned (and engraved) at some point by a European.
Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 29th December 2007, 02:27 AM

Hi All,
I neglected to mention an important part of the Arion legend. He was saved from drowning by a dolphin that loved his music.
Sincerely,
RobT

Henk · 29th December 2007, 09:00 AM

Rob,

According to your comment this knife could also have a Greek or Turkish origin. Or is it possible that in the neighbourhood of India, as earlier mentioned, this Greek mythology was engraved on the knive?

RobT · 29th December 2007, 04:36 PM

Hi Henk,
Indeed the knife itself could have a Turkish origin but I think it unlikely that a Muslim Turk would have adorned it with a representational engraving let alone one taken from Greek Mythology. It is possible that a person of Greek origin living in Turkey (or in Greece for that matter) had the engraving done but that would be a case of a westerner using a motif from his western heritage. While it is true that certain aspects of the Greek aesthetic were carried into India with the conquests of Alexander, that was a long time ago. Your blade can't date to that period and I have been led to understand that the Greek influence in the subcontinent was short lived with only surviving antiquities to attest to its presence. Given this, I would consider it unlikely that an Indian living in the 18th or 19th century would have chosen a minor character from Greek mythology as a subject for engraving. All this having been said however, the blade does have a non-western look about it and I think inglered's proposal that this is a European trade (rehilted to local taste) the most likely.
Sincerely,
RobT

Henk · 30th December 2007, 10:07 AM

Hi Rob,

Your answer makes sense. A Muslim certainly wouldn't engrave this picture on the blade. For the moment I will consider this blade as a european trading blade.

Thanks, Henk

inveterate · 30th December 2007, 11:43 AM

Dont wish to confuse the issue with anything non factual, but seem to recall seeing something similiar that came from Cyprus, the old brains a bit fogged on it and I cant recall where I saw it. Rod

Henk · 30th December 2007, 11:56 AM

Rod,

You certainly don't confuse the issue. Cyprus (Greece), was mentioned as a place of origin. Any help is welcome to identify this knife.

23rd December 2007, 09:23 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Need help by identification of a knife I have no idea what Santa left behind for me, but I think I do like it. Length is 49 cm. The hilt looks horn to me and is transculent. On the blade near the base is an engraving of a whale and just above the whale something that looks like the head of a dog. My guess is that it comes from Asia. Attached Images

23rd December 2007, 10:18 PM	#4
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	CUBA? Seems colonial to me, maybe Cuba? Thanks Carlos

23rd December 2007, 11:06 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Jim, Rich, This picture of the blade marking is the best I can do at the moment, I'm afraid. The marking is a bit worn out. Maybe because of the patina. Honestly I doubt the marking is a clear mark of the maker. Attached Images

24th December 2007, 11:44 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Unusual Nice knife, I'd like something like that myself, I think it looks almost Spanish so maybe Cuba is not far off.....just a thought...Merry Christmas everyone!!!

27th December 2007, 02:21 AM	#14
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 452	It's Greek to me Hi All, I believe the sea creature is a dolphin and the rider is the mythological Greek musician Arion. The woodcuts in the vihuela book "Seys Libros del Delfin de Musica" by Narváez published at Valladolid in 1538 show, according to the playwright Thomas Heywood, "Arion on the Dolphin's backe, still fumbling on a gittern". (Apparently the publishers felt it necessary to replace Arion's traditional lyre with a vihuela.) If my identification is correct, it would seem to indicate that the blade was at least owned (and engraved) at some point by a European. Sincerely, RobT

23rd December 2007, 10:03 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I doubt Asian just from the style. Can you post a clear picture of the blade markings? Rich S

23rd December 2007, 10:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Its been a while, but I've seen something similar that was I believe from coastal India, possibly Malabar coast. I'd like to see more on the blade markings also.

23rd December 2007, 11:30 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	A dog? I must be seeing things . To me, it looks like some person ( a lady ? ) mounting on the so said whale . That button on the handle ... is it fix or unscrewable ? Are you sure is Asian, Jim ? Not colonial, like Carlos sugests ? Or even an African hunting knife, with a trade blade ? Fernando

24th December 2007, 12:19 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	West coast India, to the south, Kerala. Basic similarities in motif resembling some piha kaetta, as well as the capstan.

24th December 2007, 04:45 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT LOOKS LIKE A MERMAID RIDING ON A DOLPHIN PLAYING A HARP TO ME. PERHAPS THE KNIFE IS FROM THE METERANEN AREA BUT SUCH DESIGNS WERE ALSO FOUND IN EUROPEAN COUNTRYS. EITHER WAY ITS A GRAND CHRISTMAS PRESENT, CONGRADULATIONS

24th December 2007, 07:45 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Vandoo, You're right. Now I see it too. It is a harp playing mermaid, riding a dolphin. The picture gives a more sharper image of the engraving than when you study it with your bare eyes. The tail of the mermaid is hardly visible and her head is not visible at all any more. For the moment I go with Jim. The area of India makes sense to me. It has some piha kaetta similarities in its appearance. Fernando, the button on the handle is fixed. Thanks for your comments so far.

24th December 2007, 09:26 AM	#10
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, at the moment I have no literature at hand but I have sveral books, where this kind of knife is depicted. Accoring to these books these knives where made in the middle of the 19th century in Solingen for export to Middle and South America. Greetings Helge

24th December 2007, 07:26 PM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Helge, When you have your books at your hand some pictures and maybe a description would be nice. I'm also curious to the scabbard of these knives. By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS everybody!!!

29th December 2007, 02:27 AM	#15
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 452	Hi All, I neglected to mention an important part of the Arion legend. He was saved from drowning by a dolphin that loved his music. Sincerely, RobT

29th December 2007, 09:00 AM	#16
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rob, According to your comment this knife could also have a Greek or Turkish origin. Or is it possible that in the neighbourhood of India, as earlier mentioned, this Greek mythology was engraved on the knive?

29th December 2007, 04:36 PM	#17
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 452	Hi Henk, Indeed the knife itself could have a Turkish origin but I think it unlikely that a Muslim Turk would have adorned it with a representational engraving let alone one taken from Greek Mythology. It is possible that a person of Greek origin living in Turkey (or in Greece for that matter) had the engraving done but that would be a case of a westerner using a motif from his western heritage. While it is true that certain aspects of the Greek aesthetic were carried into India with the conquests of Alexander, that was a long time ago. Your blade can't date to that period and I have been led to understand that the Greek influence in the subcontinent was short lived with only surviving antiquities to attest to its presence. Given this, I would consider it unlikely that an Indian living in the 18th or 19th century would have chosen a minor character from Greek mythology as a subject for engraving. All this having been said however, the blade does have a non-western look about it and I think inglered's proposal that this is a European trade (rehilted to local taste) the most likely. Sincerely, RobT

30th December 2007, 10:07 AM	#18
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Rob, Your answer makes sense. A Muslim certainly wouldn't engrave this picture on the blade. For the moment I will consider this blade as a european trading blade. Thanks, Henk

30th December 2007, 11:43 AM	#19
inveterate Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 58	Dont wish to confuse the issue with anything non factual, but seem to recall seeing something similiar that came from Cyprus, the old brains a bit fogged on it and I cant recall where I saw it. Rod

30th December 2007, 11:56 AM	#20
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rod, You certainly don't confuse the issue. Cyprus (Greece), was mentioned as a place of origin. Any help is welcome to identify this knife.