Real "ninja" sword, or modern invention?

fearn · 14th November 2010, 06:08 AM

Hi All,

Found another weird sword, and I'm wondering how real it is.

The sword I'm posting below is claimed to be a special "ninja" weapon invented by the Saito family in Medieval Japan, and possibly of supernatural origin

(see link to picture and story).

I'm talking about the middle sword in the picture. It's a "backwards" katana: 2/3 handle, 1/3 blade, and the blade is double-edged. It is used differently than a katana (search for "tengu sword" on Youtube). The one shown is obviously is a modern model.

A school teaching the use of this weapon exists, but some martial artists believe that the system is modern, and that the "tengu sword" is based on the knives used to harvest cane and pineapple in Hawaii--cane knives and machetes, in other words.

My question to the board is: has anyone ever seen a genuine, historical Japanese (or other) sword that looks like this? If you think it's modern like the "ninjato" above it, what do you think it was based on? It doesn't look like a cane knife or machete to me.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 11:56 AM

I can't speak to the tengu sword (Looks like a bad, bent naganata), but the "ninja" sword is a modern fiction. There is no credible historical evidence of such swords in Japan. They are basically a modern Hollywood invention - pure fiction. I suspect the same for the tengu sword.

Rich S

-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

fearn · 14th November 2010, 03:44 PM

Hi Rich,

That much I know, and I'm not arguing that the ninja-to is a genuine historical design, used by real ninja.

As for the tengu sword, it's weird enough that I figured I would ask. It's certainly an original design, and it hasn't been commercialized the way the ninja-to has.

Assuming it's modern leads to a fun question: why create an anachronistic weapon that's only used in a few martial arts schools in Hawaii, California, and Arizona? In California, at least, carrying that sword would be a felony.

The other thing is that Japan does have an extensive history of weird weapons, and people do collect them. If the tengu sword has any historical precedents (perhaps a military kama?), I figured someone on the list might know.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 04:57 PM

The only reverse edged Japanese weapon/tool that I'm aware of is the KUBIKIRI or BOKUWARI. These were basically bonsai or gardening tools (although lots of fancy tales about them). I've only personally seen them in tanto size although I did see a pic of one on a sales site years ago in wakizashi length.

Might want to look at my page on unusual tanto for a kubikiri pic.

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

fearn · 14th November 2010, 08:07 PM

Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime.

One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape.

Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 08:13 PM

Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture.

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

14th November 2010, 06:08 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Real "ninja" sword, or modern invention? Hi All, Found another weird sword, and I'm wondering how real it is. The sword I'm posting below is claimed to be a special "ninja" weapon invented by the Saito family in Medieval Japan, and possibly of supernatural origin (see link to picture and story). I'm talking about the middle sword in the picture. It's a "backwards" katana: 2/3 handle, 1/3 blade, and the blade is double-edged. It is used differently than a katana (search for "tengu sword" on Youtube). The one shown is obviously is a modern model. A school teaching the use of this weapon exists, but some martial artists believe that the system is modern, and that the "tengu sword" is based on the knives used to harvest cane and pineapple in Hawaii--cane knives and machetes, in other words. My question to the board is: has anyone ever seen a genuine, historical Japanese (or other) sword that looks like this? If you think it's modern like the "ninjato" above it, what do you think it was based on? It doesn't look like a cane knife or machete to me. Best, F Attached Images

14th November 2010, 03:44 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Rich, That much I know, and I'm not arguing that the ninja-to is a genuine historical design, used by real ninja. As for the tengu sword, it's weird enough that I figured I would ask. It's certainly an original design, and it hasn't been commercialized the way the ninja-to has. Assuming it's modern leads to a fun question: why create an anachronistic weapon that's only used in a few martial arts schools in Hawaii, California, and Arizona? In California, at least, carrying that sword would be a felony. The other thing is that Japan does have an extensive history of weird weapons, and people do collect them. If the tengu sword has any historical precedents (perhaps a military kama?), I figured someone on the list might know. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 14th November 2010 at 04:01 PM.

14th November 2010, 11:56 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I can't speak to the tengu sword (Looks like a bad, bent naganata), but the "ninja" sword is a modern fiction. There is no credible historical evidence of such swords in Japan. They are basically a modern Hollywood invention - pure fiction. I suspect the same for the tengu sword. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

14th November 2010, 04:57 PM	#4
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	The only reverse edged Japanese weapon/tool that I'm aware of is the KUBIKIRI or BOKUWARI. These were basically bonsai or gardening tools (although lots of fancy tales about them). I've only personally seen them in tanto size although I did see a pic of one on a sales site years ago in wakizashi length. Might want to look at my page on unusual tanto for a kubikiri pic. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

14th November 2010, 08:07 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime. One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape. Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless. Best, F

14th November 2010, 08:13 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm