Unknown Sword or machete

carlos · 11th March 2017, 09:10 PM

This is my last adquisition, I,m not sure if is a machete or a modified Sword. Total length 40 in.
Handle is wood and silver.
The blade has some engravings but is very difficult see them. The sheath is broken, with silver parts.
Thanks in advance.
Any information will be good.
Best regards

Carlos

mariusgmioc · 11th March 2017, 09:16 PM

It is a sword because its shape would make it very ineffective at cutting any type pf vegetation.

The blade looks like an European cavalry blade... I guess.

carlos · 11th March 2017, 09:21 PM

Thank you very much!
Any idea of origin?
Thanks

Sajen · 11th March 2017, 09:53 PM

Hello Carlos,

very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me.

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 11th March 2017, 11:20 PM

Most interesting native repurposing of a what appears to be a British M1796 Heavy Cavalry sword blade (the engravings suggest possibly an officers), but these type blades were on the swords used by British in Napoleonic campaigns.
While I cannot be sure of the style of the hilt etc. it seems more Asian or Philippines. The scabbard is stylized after military type scabbards of officers swords of the period, but the original scabbard to this type blade was iron.

This would be entirely to long and awkward in my view as a machete, so what the purpose of this would be is anyones guess.

carlos · 12th March 2017, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Carlos,

very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me.

Regards,
Detlef

Hello
Certainly I,m not sure if is silver
Thanks again

Jim McDougall · 12th March 2017, 05:27 PM

Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

mariusgmioc · 13th March 2017, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

Hello Jim,

Wasn't the M1796 a sabre... thus with a curved blade?

kronckew · 13th March 2017, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Jim,

Wasn't the M1796 a sabre... thus with a curved blade?

the 1796 LC sabre was curved with a hatchet point and simple stirrup guard

the 1796 HC 'sabre' (or sword) was straight with a hatchet point and a flat perforated discoid guard...many were modified before waterloo to 'spear point' the blades. removed from service in 1861.

i think the differences between the terms 'sabre' an d 'sword' were a bit blurry. troopers carried sabres, officers carried swords, even if both looked exactly alike (except for possible decoration on the officer's). the 1796 HC officer's private purchase swords were frequently decorated with scrollwork. the troopers issued ones were not. collectors tend to lock in terms that may or may not have been the same during the active service life of our weapons. makes for interesting arguments here on the forum

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2017, 02:21 AM

Spot on Wayne!!
The 1796 patterns (first 'official' British cavalry pattern) were for light and heavy, as were the next in 1821 (actually 1829).....in 1853 the sword was for both light and heavy. The 1796 'honeysuckle' hilt for heavy cavalry officers was an amazing hilt, and had the same blade as the troopers.

The term sabre was often used broadly for both straight and curved blades for cavalry in the 18th century, the same as broadsword was used for both double edged and single edged (backsword).

These heavy straight blades like the 1796 were usually called 'pallasche' on the Continent.

They think the 'name game' is restricted to ethnographic forms only? NOT.
These variances have present the opportunity for many , uh, 'discussions/debates' around here through the years.

Absolutely right on the modification to spear point on these 'heavies' just prior to Waterloo was reflective of the constant debate over cut vs. thrust for cavalry. These heavy cavalry swords were not popular with the cavalry as they were heavy, awkward chopping swords, but were devastating in the immortal charge of the "Scots Grey's" that day .

I collected British cavalry swords back 'in the day' (late 60s) and still remember a lot of this stuff.

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2017, 10:21 AM

Thank you guys for the info on the 1796 model!

kronckew · 14th March 2017, 02:55 PM

there happened to be a 1796 HC sabre on auction yesterday, in excellent condition listed at 80-100 as a 'sharpe sword'. i bid for it online hoping no one else knew what it was, i dropped out early tho and it went for close to a grand. been watching it online for about a week, biuting my tongue while i posted here in this thread.

just for interest, now that the auction is over, richard sharpe, as most of you may know already, is a fictional napoleonic rifle officer set in wellington's army. he carries a 1796 HC sword, hence the 'sharpe sword' in the terse auction description. too many collector sharks swimming out there tho.

the other officers frequently refer to it as a ''butcher's blade'' unsuitable for a gentleman (sharpe was an infantry sergeant raised to lieutenant, made colonel by the time of waterloo, a 'maverick' from the ranks and considered by many other commissioned officers - who had 'purchased' their commissions - as not a proper officer.). episodes are available on dvd or youtube, well worth watching the series which covers the penninsular war, india, and waterloo. they tend to be quite accurate with uniforms and equipment, weapons from both sides.

Jim McDougall · 14th March 2017, 08:06 PM

Thanks for the detail on the 'Sharpe' series, which were pretty great military lore! and the use of this M1796 Heavy by a rifles company officer always attracted a lot of collector furor back in those great old days. Back then you could get one of these for about 100-200 bucks, the light cavs went more, usually about 250. I saw these for as little as 75-100 bucks (late 60s early 70s).
I forget the story of how Sharpe got the sword, but as he was on campaign in the Peninsula prior to Waterloo, it seems it was some sort of field arrangement.

kronckew · 14th March 2017, 09:29 PM

episode 1 started with him a redcoat being field commissioned for saving wellinton into the rifles from a trio of french cavalrymen he shot 2 off their horses & clubbed one with his rifle. he of course needed a sword. he reported to the platoon he was to command & had a barney with the irish sgt. harper who later becomes his best friend. they went on a mission with his company commander, who was badly wounded, as he lay dying, he gave his sword to sharpe, telling him that the men might respect him more if they knew the captain thought enough of him to give it to him. they never said where the captain got it from.

he carried it thru the rest of the series and sequels in india. he broke it once, snapped the blade, harper forged a new matching blade for it while sharpe lay recovering from a wound.

11th March 2017, 09:10 PM	#1
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	Unknown Sword or machete This is my last adquisition, I,m not sure if is a machete or a modified Sword. Total length 40 in. Handle is wood and silver. The blade has some engravings but is very difficult see them. The sheath is broken, with silver parts. Thanks in advance. Any information will be good. Best regards Carlos Attached Images

14th March 2017, 02:55 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	there happened to be a 1796 HC sabre on auction yesterday, in excellent condition listed at 80-100 as a 'sharpe sword'. i bid for it online hoping no one else knew what it was, i dropped out early tho and it went for close to a grand. been watching it online for about a week, biuting my tongue while i posted here in this thread. just for interest, now that the auction is over, richard sharpe, as most of you may know already, is a fictional napoleonic rifle officer set in wellington's army. he carries a 1796 HC sword, hence the 'sharpe sword' in the terse auction description. too many collector sharks swimming out there tho. the other officers frequently refer to it as a ''butcher's blade'' unsuitable for a gentleman (sharpe was an infantry sergeant raised to lieutenant, made colonel by the time of waterloo, a 'maverick' from the ranks and considered by many other commissioned officers - who had 'purchased' their commissions - as not a proper officer.). episodes are available on dvd or youtube, well worth watching the series which covers the penninsular war, india, and waterloo. they tend to be quite accurate with uniforms and equipment, weapons from both sides. Attached Images

14th March 2017, 09:29 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	episode 1 started with him a redcoat being field commissioned for saving wellinton into the rifles from a trio of french cavalrymen he shot 2 off their horses & clubbed one with his rifle. he of course needed a sword. he reported to the platoon he was to command & had a barney with the irish sgt. harper who later becomes his best friend. they went on a mission with his company commander, who was badly wounded, as he lay dying, he gave his sword to sharpe, telling him that the men might respect him more if they knew the captain thought enough of him to give it to him. they never said where the captain got it from. he carried it thru the rest of the series and sequels in india. he broke it once, snapped the blade, harper forged a new matching blade for it while sharpe lay recovering from a wound. Last edited by kronckew; 14th March 2017 at 09:52 PM.

11th March 2017, 09:16 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	It is a sword because its shape would make it very ineffective at cutting any type pf vegetation. The blade looks like an European cavalry blade... I guess.

11th March 2017, 09:21 PM	#3
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 731	Thank you very much! Any idea of origin? Thanks

11th March 2017, 09:53 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,468	Hello Carlos, very interesting sword, I like it. Handle carving look very Asian, the handle mounts from white metal (you are sure it's silver?) and the "habaki" look similar to Tonkin sabre mounts, agree that the blade is most probable a European military blade. Scabbard is a puzzle to me. Regards, Detlef

11th March 2017, 11:20 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Most interesting native repurposing of a what appears to be a British M1796 Heavy Cavalry sword blade (the engravings suggest possibly an officers), but these type blades were on the swords used by British in Napoleonic campaigns. While I cannot be sure of the style of the hilt etc. it seems more Asian or Philippines. The scabbard is stylized after military type scabbards of officers swords of the period, but the original scabbard to this type blade was iron. This would be entirely to long and awkward in my view as a machete, so what the purpose of this would be is anyones guess.

12th March 2017, 05:27 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Pretty sure this is one of the rarest cases of a British M1796 Heavy cavalry blade being remounted........with habaki!!! very very unusual!

14th March 2017, 02:21 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Spot on Wayne!! The 1796 patterns (first 'official' British cavalry pattern) were for light and heavy, as were the next in 1821 (actually 1829).....in 1853 the sword was for both light and heavy. The 1796 'honeysuckle' hilt for heavy cavalry officers was an amazing hilt, and had the same blade as the troopers. The term sabre was often used broadly for both straight and curved blades for cavalry in the 18th century, the same as broadsword was used for both double edged and single edged (backsword). These heavy straight blades like the 1796 were usually called 'pallasche' on the Continent. They think the 'name game' is restricted to ethnographic forms only? NOT. These variances have present the opportunity for many , uh, 'discussions/debates' around here through the years. Absolutely right on the modification to spear point on these 'heavies' just prior to Waterloo was reflective of the constant debate over cut vs. thrust for cavalry. These heavy cavalry swords were not popular with the cavalry as they were heavy, awkward chopping swords, but were devastating in the immortal charge of the "Scots Grey's" that day . I collected British cavalry swords back 'in the day' (late 60s) and still remember a lot of this stuff.

14th March 2017, 10:21 AM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	Thank you guys for the info on the 1796 model!

14th March 2017, 08:06 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Thanks for the detail on the 'Sharpe' series, which were pretty great military lore! and the use of this M1796 Heavy by a rifles company officer always attracted a lot of collector furor back in those great old days. Back then you could get one of these for about 100-200 bucks, the light cavs went more, usually about 250. I saw these for as little as 75-100 bucks (late 60s early 70s). I forget the story of how Sharpe got the sword, but as he was on campaign in the Peninsula prior to Waterloo, it seems it was some sort of field arrangement.