shayde78

I will post much more complete information soon, but I just acquired this tulwar hilted sword, and wanted to try and get some preliminary impressions.
Would this be considered a sossun pattah? I've not seen one that is truly recurved (i.e. curving downward, then back up), so i don't know if this falls into that classification, or something else.
The blade is somewhat diminutive when compared to my only other example of a standard tulwar. However, it does have well executed triple fullers that are forged (rather than ground in). So I'm inclined to see this as a proper weapon.
As I said, I will post more complete details and pictures soon, but am.eager to hear from you all.
Thanks!

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David R

I would suggest this is a "Naga" or snake blade rather than a Sosun Pata.

mariusgmioc

Yep, sossun pattah but I am not familiar with this type of blade. But I can distinguish some kind of Indian ricasso.

shayde78

Thanks both for your quick replies!

As promised a bit more information, and some additional pictures (forgive the horrendous quality!).

The sword in question:
28" total length
23.25" blade
4mm blade thickness at hilt
1lb 2.4oz total weight

triple fullered
Indian ricasso (spot on Marius)

I'm showing below compared to a more traditional tulwar (weight 1lb 13.8 oz; just under 5mm blade thickness at hilt; total length 34.5")

Again, the pictures are bad - apologies.
[Oh, and this was part of a lot of rusty weapons - I will certainly be addressing the red rust in the near future. I also have an ancient looking kindjal that was part of this lot that I'll be posting on here soon - be on the look out!]

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Battara

I know I'm going against the grain here, but I would not call this a sosun pata because I don't see the recurved blade like a yataghan.

shayde78

Quite right, Battara, hence my question. Is this an exaggerated form of a sosun pattah, or an entirely different form? So far, I've found but one other example with a blade like this. It was called a sosun pattah, but, as you say, the swords typically called by that name have blades very much like a yataghan.

mariusgmioc

I can clearly see the recurved (consisting of two opposing curves) shape like a Yathagan.
Here below they are!
The first curve defines a concavity of the edge, the second a convexity.

So I think it IS a "sossun patah" or however it is spelled correctly.
However, the blade is somehow different from the classic sossun patah because it appears that the blade was recurved in later stages of its making.

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Ian

I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

Peter Andeweg

I don't believe we can consider this a Sosun Pattah. The Kopis form of the blade from the Sosun can be distinguished in two forms, the Indo-Islamic and the Hindu basket form. The Indo Islamic form is shaped like a willow leaf, hence the name Sosun Pattah in Urdu.

The Hindu basket hilted Sosun has a more crude curve, but a downward curve in the middle section of the blade. Both have chopping type of blade with a center of gravity to make it suitable for chopping.

A similar idea of blade construction can be found on the Nepalese Kukri.

Your blade's middle section is facing upwards which can be more seen as an Indian made type Yataghan.

Regards, Peter

shayde78

Atzi's site has some in the gallery of sold items. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pictures from a commercial site but think I'm allowed if the items are no longer for sale. If someone can confirm, I'll pull some examples that, while not exactly the same, may be considered to be from the same family.

Ian

We accept pictures of sold items taken from commercial sites as long as there is no direct link to the site or other commercial traits visible in the picture. The pictures need to be uploaded here and not linked to.

shayde78

Thank you, Ian. The site in question does list the website in text on the images themselves. I could obscure this address by editing the image. However, I appreciate Atzi making an archive of past sold items available for research, so I don't want to use those images without proper attribution. The text is written under the item in the image, and there is no hyperlink. Would posting these be acceptable?

Bryce

G'day Guys,
I have a British sword circa 1815 with a recurved blade, similar to this one. My blade is a pipe-back and is 80cm long. The intent of the design seems to be to provide a curved cutting edge, with the point more inline for easier thrusting. Initially I had thought that perhaps the officer commissioned this sword based on similar blades he had seen in India, but until now hadn't seen any similar blades. In most sossun patahs, the final curve which brings the point back up is much shorter and the point is nowhere near inline with the hilt. Thanks for posting this.
Cheers,
Bryce

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shayde78

Bryce - I have thought the SAME thing. The recurve brings the point up into alignment with the grip to facilitate a thrust. That said, a typical sabre typically has the point in line with the grip, too, so I'm not sure this alone explains this design. I also thought that, perhaps, the ergonomics change if the user were on horseback thrusting/slashing at a target standing on the ground. While that may be true for the example you shared, the diminutive size of the example from this thread makes me think this was not a cavalry weapon. Again, I may well be wrong. Still, it is nice tho know my line of thinking is not too divergent from others on here. Reassuring to me, perhaps concerning to you!

shayde78

Having received authorization to post the following pictures, I offer some examples of blades with similar curves, albeit none share the blade profile exactly, not are these from blades mounted in the typical tulwar hilt. Still, perhaps they can shine more of a light on intended function and/or region of the sub-continent where this shape was more common.

All of these examples are from Artzi's site. I am grateful he archives items that have been sold for others to use as reference. If you read this, thank you. To reiterate, all the examples below are listed as SOLD. If I have made an error, the moderators are welcome to remove.

The first example is to illustrate what would be more of a yataghan shape. This is to illustrate that the example that started this thread diverges significantly from this shape.

The second example starts to approximate the shape in question, but the second curve is still less pronounced.

Examples 3-5 show a similar curvature, but the blade gets markedly thicker towards the point, establishing these as effective choppers. (I think #5 is the one Artzi uses as his logo)

Examples 6-8 show similar blade profiles, but all different forms from the example upon which this thread is focused.

Overall, thoughts on any analysis these additional examples provide?

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Bryce

This comparison photo with a British 1796 light cavalry sabre illustrates the "point" a little better. With a typical sabre, in order to deliver the point to the target, the user has to drop their wrist. With a recurve, the wrist can remain in a stronger, more neutral position.
Cheers,
Bryce

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shayde78

Bryce,

You are right about the orientation, and how this recurve design makes a thrust with the point much more efficient. I had to take my sword back in hand to fully appreciate what you were describing, and how it compares to the more common saber-bladed design. However, one additional thing I noticed, that I never really noticed before, is that the disc pommel of a typical tulwar hilt interferes with the wrist if you try to hold it like a thrusting sword. I'll try to take pictures and compare how the ergonomics revel themselves between this example, and one of my smallswords or my Pappenheim. In short, the roundish pommel on these swords designed for the thrust lies flat along the wrist when delivering a thrust. The tulwar disc does not. I know there has been much discussion about how the tulwar's hilt facilitates a draw cut through ergonomics alone. I always found that ot be true, but never really considered how it might limit other types of attacks with the blade.

All of that said, for the example you show with a Western style stirrup hilt, the thrust could be delivered quite efficiently.