Sossun Pattah??

Ian · 12th February 2021, 12:22 PM

I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

Peter Andeweg · 12th February 2021, 02:02 PM

I don't believe we can consider this a Sosun Pattah. The Kopis form of the blade from the Sosun can be distinguished in two forms, the Indo-Islamic and the Hindu basket form. The Indo Islamic form is shaped like a willow leaf, hence the name Sosun Pattah in Urdu.

The Hindu basket hilted Sosun has a more crude curve, but a downward curve in the middle section of the blade. Both have chopping type of blade with a center of gravity to make it suitable for chopping.

A similar idea of blade construction can be found on the Nepalese Kukri.

Your blade's middle section is facing upwards which can be more seen as an Indian made type Yataghan.

Regards, Peter

shayde78 · 16th February 2021, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

Atzi's site has some in the gallery of sold items. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pictures from a commercial site but think I'm allowed if the items are no longer for sale. If someone can confirm, I'll pull some examples that, while not exactly the same, may be considered to be from the same family.

Ian · 16th February 2021, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

Atzi's site has some in the gallery of sold items. I'm not sure I'm allowed to post pictures from a commercial site but think I'm allowed if the items are no longer for sale. If someone can confirm, I'll pull some examples that, while not exactly the same, may be considered to be from the same family.

We accept pictures of sold items taken from commercial sites as long as there is no direct link to the site or other commercial traits visible in the picture. The pictures need to be uploaded here and not linked to.

shayde78 · 19th February 2021, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

We accept pictures of sold items taken from commercial sites as long as there is no direct link to the site or other commercial traits visible in the picture. The pictures need to be uploaded here and not linked to.

Thank you, Ian. The site in question does list the website in text on the images themselves. I could obscure this address by editing the image. However, I appreciate Atzi making an archive of past sold items available for research, so I don't want to use those images without proper attribution. The text is written under the item in the image, and there is no hyperlink. Would posting these be acceptable?

Bryce · 21st February 2021, 08:46 PM

G'day Guys,
I have a British sword circa 1815 with a recurved blade, similar to this one. My blade is a pipe-back and is 80cm long. The intent of the design seems to be to provide a curved cutting edge, with the point more inline for easier thrusting. Initially I had thought that perhaps the officer commissioned this sword based on similar blades he had seen in India, but until now hadn't seen any similar blades. In most sossun patahs, the final curve which brings the point back up is much shorter and the point is nowhere near inline with the hilt. Thanks for posting this.
Cheers,
Bryce

shayde78 · 22nd February 2021, 08:05 PM

Bryce - I have thought the SAME thing. The recurve brings the point up into alignment with the grip to facilitate a thrust. That said, a typical sabre typically has the point in line with the grip, too, so I'm not sure this alone explains this design. I also thought that, perhaps, the ergonomics change if the user were on horseback thrusting/slashing at a target standing on the ground. While that may be true for the example you shared, the diminutive size of the example from this thread makes me think this was not a cavalry weapon. Again, I may well be wrong. Still, it is nice tho know my line of thinking is not too divergent from others on here. Reassuring to me, perhaps concerning to you!

shayde78 · 22nd February 2021, 08:15 PM

Having received authorization to post the following pictures, I offer some examples of blades with similar curves, albeit none share the blade profile exactly, not are these from blades mounted in the typical tulwar hilt. Still, perhaps they can shine more of a light on intended function and/or region of the sub-continent where this shape was more common.

All of these examples are from Artzi's site. I am grateful he archives items that have been sold for others to use as reference. If you read this, thank you. To reiterate, all the examples below are listed as SOLD. If I have made an error, the moderators are welcome to remove.

The first example is to illustrate what would be more of a yataghan shape. This is to illustrate that the example that started this thread diverges significantly from this shape.

The second example starts to approximate the shape in question, but the second curve is still less pronounced.

Examples 3-5 show a similar curvature, but the blade gets markedly thicker towards the point, establishing these as effective choppers. (I think #5 is the one Artzi uses as his logo)

Examples 6-8 show similar blade profiles, but all different forms from the example upon which this thread is focused.

Overall, thoughts on any analysis these additional examples provide?

21st February 2021, 08:46 PM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Guys, I have a British sword circa 1815 with a recurved blade, similar to this one. My blade is a pipe-back and is 80cm long. The intent of the design seems to be to provide a curved cutting edge, with the point more inline for easier thrusting. Initially I had thought that perhaps the officer commissioned this sword based on similar blades he had seen in India, but until now hadn't seen any similar blades. In most sossun patahs, the final curve which brings the point back up is much shorter and the point is nowhere near inline with the hilt. Thanks for posting this. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

22nd February 2021, 08:15 PM	#8
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Having received authorization to post the following pictures, I offer some examples of blades with similar curves, albeit none share the blade profile exactly, not are these from blades mounted in the typical tulwar hilt. Still, perhaps they can shine more of a light on intended function and/or region of the sub-continent where this shape was more common. All of these examples are from Artzi's site. I am grateful he archives items that have been sold for others to use as reference. If you read this, thank you. To reiterate, all the examples below are listed as SOLD. If I have made an error, the moderators are welcome to remove. The first example is to illustrate what would be more of a yataghan shape. This is to illustrate that the example that started this thread diverges significantly from this shape. The second example starts to approximate the shape in question, but the second curve is still less pronounced. Examples 3-5 show a similar curvature, but the blade gets markedly thicker towards the point, establishing these as effective choppers. (I think #5 is the one Artzi uses as his logo) Examples 6-8 show similar blade profiles, but all different forms from the example upon which this thread is focused. Overall, thoughts on any analysis these additional examples provide? Attached Images

12th February 2021, 12:22 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,429	I too think this is a recurved blade, but it does not resemble any other sossun patah I've seen.

12th February 2021, 02:02 PM	#2
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	I don't believe we can consider this a Sosun Pattah. The Kopis form of the blade from the Sosun can be distinguished in two forms, the Indo-Islamic and the Hindu basket form. The Indo Islamic form is shaped like a willow leaf, hence the name Sosun Pattah in Urdu. The Hindu basket hilted Sosun has a more crude curve, but a downward curve in the middle section of the blade. Both have chopping type of blade with a center of gravity to make it suitable for chopping. A similar idea of blade construction can be found on the Nepalese Kukri. Your blade's middle section is facing upwards which can be more seen as an Indian made type Yataghan. Regards, Peter

22nd February 2021, 08:05 PM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Bryce - I have thought the SAME thing. The recurve brings the point up into alignment with the grip to facilitate a thrust. That said, a typical sabre typically has the point in line with the grip, too, so I'm not sure this alone explains this design. I also thought that, perhaps, the ergonomics change if the user were on horseback thrusting/slashing at a target standing on the ground. While that may be true for the example you shared, the diminutive size of the example from this thread makes me think this was not a cavalry weapon. Again, I may well be wrong. Still, it is nice tho know my line of thinking is not too divergent from others on here. Reassuring to me, perhaps concerning to you!