Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

Jean · 30th January 2021, 09:59 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you very much for you very detailed and interesting comments. They show the complexity and uncertainty of the kris world for the Western collectors like myself, and the differences between the Yogya and Solo kris schools which cause more confusion.
David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2021, 10:59 AM

Yes Jean, its difficult.

I didn't imagine that a few little comments on a tiny, insignificant, little mendakipun would get any response other than an "Oh yeah".

But just one thing Jean:- there is no debate.

When people debate they try to convince the other party that one point of view has more merit than the other.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I truly do not care at all whether anybody accepts my comments as valid, or not. All I'm doing is just passing on a little of my experience:- accept or reject I don't care either way.

Actually the differences go further than just Solo & Jogja. I personally find some of the East Jawa opinions a bit hard to accept. Then of course we have the variation in opinions between people living on opposite sides of the road.

Its easier just to think in terms of everybody being right --- in their own way.

Interested Party · 30th January 2021, 02:57 PM

We are discussing 3 books I have wanted to read. Whatever their validity.
I read the Apocrypha so I am ok with dissenting opinions. I have a manuscript type copy of the EBN and need to purchase a copy of the original with pictures to have it make more sense.
I have not found a copy of the EK or Keris Jawa in English. Do translations exist? I thought they did but not having found one is making me doubt my belief.
And of course there is still my quest for a copy of Gronnman at a reasonable price. Tammens was not as helpful as I had hoped him to be.

PS I have found this thread fascinating. More information on mendaks than the rest of my library combined!

A. G. Maisey · 30th January 2021, 08:27 PM

EBN is not a low cost book. I know of two copies that were sold in Indonesia more than 5 years ago at the equivalent of approximately $US500 each, this book has apparently become a collector's item in its own right.

I have not heard of an English translation of either EK or KJ. Both these books are full of pictures and for a collector as distinct from a researcher, the pictures together with captions are probably enough.

The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available.

Actually, this perceived barrier of language is not as high as one might think. Bahasa Indonesia is a very simple language to learn to a basic level --- after "basic" it can get a bit tricky, but with an Echols & Shadily I reckon anybody could get what they really need from EK, and perhaps KJ.

David · 30th January 2021, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available.

I do believe it is possible to find this book for somewhere in the vicinity of the prices Alan suggests, though i would not go as far as to say it is easily available.
I would suggest you checkout the website bookfinder.com. This website will list all the available options to find used books from booksellers all around the world. You will not find this recent edition of The Javanese Kris new anywhere. Even though this updated and expanded version of this classic keris book was first released in 2009 i do not believe they have plans to run any new editions of it so it should probably be considered out-of-print at this point. I was fortunate to have jumped on a copy of this when it first came out and was selling for under $100USD. It is a handsome hardcover edition with all kinds of added photos and diagrams that were not in Groneman's origin printing. A nice book to own, though i don't image it is very essential to an understanding of the keris and certainly has it's share of "errors", so you may not really want to spent $300USD to acquire one.
I do believe, however, that you can access an online version from academia.edu. It says it is free if you sign up. You can see about the first 40 pages of it without a sign in. I honestly don't know how it works because i have never pursued it to the point of signing up, but if you are interested in having access to this book this might be a good option to look into.

https://www.academia.edu/23350430/THE_JAVANESE_KRIS

Interested Party · 5th February 2021, 05:00 AM

Max, I can't wait to see pictures of the keris after you give it some love!

Alan, daphor Bandhotan? Is this specific to 11 lok? I haven't found any information on it. Does it have something to do with a knot of protection, bandha in Sanskrit? Thanks for the Echols & Shadily suggestion. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that. I can find all three books (EK, EBN, and The Javanese Kris), I just would like to find copies for less. The $100 price range that David mentioned would be nice.

David, the academia.edu has seemed interesting before. On the down side they want your contacts from google or facebook. Unfortunately 40 pages doesn't get to daphor or pamor. Beyond that it seems like a subscription is necessary. I am liking bookfinder.com.

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2021, 05:59 AM

"Bandhotan" is a kind of snake.

I know nothing about this dhapur, in fact i did not even know it existed until I looked it up, I only knew "bandhotan" as a tombak dhapur, that has a naga head at each side of its base, the naga bodies twine together and form the odo-odo. The tombak is luk 7.

I think there is possibly one of the Karaton Jogja pusakas that is bandhotan, but I don't know if it is a keris or a tombak.

In the SKA pakem keris bandhotan has 11 luk, but it is pretty widespread practice that if a waved keris agrees with a known dhapur in all except the number of waves it is acceptable to give it as that dhapur + the number of luk, so FX, Keris Dhapur Bandhotan Luk Lima for a keris that has ricikan that agrees to bandhotan, but only 5 luk.

I'm a member of Academia.com, and I used to have the premium pay membership, I dropped that pay membership because I began to get a bit annoyed with Academia, they send you a message every time your name gets mentioned in some publication or other, but regrettably there are several people who have the same name that I do, there's a marine biologist, a 19th century English historian, and others that have a name that is close enough to my name for their little machine to think we're the same person.

It doesn't even stop there, I think I've been sent well over 100 notifications of genuine mentions of my name in some paper or book or other, when I have already seen that mention. Only today I got advised for the umpteenth time that my name is mentioned in a South Sulawesi archaeology paper, it is a genuine mention, but they've told me many more times than once. It is very annoying getting continual emails that do not relate to anything that you might have done, or multiple emails that relate to something you have done.

But it is a twin edged sword, because you get sent publications that are mostly relevant to your own field and that you can download. I have about 200 academic papers that I have downloaded thanks to what gets sent to me from Academia, these are not all keris related papers but they are related to other stuff I'm involved in. I'd say that on balance it is certainly worth joining, but don't get sucked in to the "pay" version.

David · 30th January 2021, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

LOL! Ahhhhh...nope, didn't see that coming.

Though once again, like the opinions you expressed, not MY pic. LOL!

I think this has been an interesting discussion, though as Alan points out, his salient points should not be anything new to those that have had an interest in keris for any reasonable period of time.
I do feel a bid for Max, however, since this thread does seem to have gone off on more than one tangent. Hopefully he feels his questions about his keris have been properly addressed.

30th January 2021, 09:59 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you very much for you very detailed and interesting comments. They show the complexity and uncertainty of the kris world for the Western collectors like myself, and the differences between the Yogya and Solo kris schools which cause more confusion. David, did you imagine that your pic will raise such a debate?

30th January 2021, 10:59 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,023	Yes Jean, its difficult. I didn't imagine that a few little comments on a tiny, insignificant, little mendakipun would get any response other than an "Oh yeah". But just one thing Jean:- there is no debate. When people debate they try to convince the other party that one point of view has more merit than the other. I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I truly do not care at all whether anybody accepts my comments as valid, or not. All I'm doing is just passing on a little of my experience:- accept or reject I don't care either way. Actually the differences go further than just Solo & Jogja. I personally find some of the East Jawa opinions a bit hard to accept. Then of course we have the variation in opinions between people living on opposite sides of the road. Its easier just to think in terms of everybody being right --- in their own way.

30th January 2021, 02:57 PM	#3
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 503	We are discussing 3 books I have wanted to read. Whatever their validity. I read the Apocrypha so I am ok with dissenting opinions. I have a manuscript type copy of the EBN and need to purchase a copy of the original with pictures to have it make more sense. I have not found a copy of the EK or Keris Jawa in English. Do translations exist? I thought they did but not having found one is making me doubt my belief. And of course there is still my quest for a copy of Gronnman at a reasonable price. Tammens was not as helpful as I had hoped him to be. PS I have found this thread fascinating. More information on mendaks than the rest of my library combined!

30th January 2021, 08:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,023	EBN is not a low cost book. I know of two copies that were sold in Indonesia more than 5 years ago at the equivalent of approximately $US500 each, this book has apparently become a collector's item in its own right. I have not heard of an English translation of either EK or KJ. Both these books are full of pictures and for a collector as distinct from a researcher, the pictures together with captions are probably enough. The KITLV book that contains Groneman, ISBN 9789067183291, over the last few years has sold for between $US250 & $US350. My understanding is that this book is easily available. Actually, this perceived barrier of language is not as high as one might think. Bahasa Indonesia is a very simple language to learn to a basic level --- after "basic" it can get a bit tricky, but with an Echols & Shadily I reckon anybody could get what they really need from EK, and perhaps KJ.

5th February 2021, 05:00 AM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 503	Max, I can't wait to see pictures of the keris after you give it some love! Alan, daphor Bandhotan? Is this specific to 11 lok? I haven't found any information on it. Does it have something to do with a knot of protection, bandha in Sanskrit? Thanks for the Echols & Shadily suggestion. I don't know why I hadn't thought of that. I can find all three books (EK, EBN, and The Javanese Kris), I just would like to find copies for less. The $100 price range that David mentioned would be nice. David, the academia.edu has seemed interesting before. On the down side they want your contacts from google or facebook. Unfortunately 40 pages doesn't get to daphor or pamor. Beyond that it seems like a subscription is necessary. I am liking bookfinder.com.

5th February 2021, 05:59 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,023	"Bandhotan" is a kind of snake. I know nothing about this dhapur, in fact i did not even know it existed until I looked it up, I only knew "bandhotan" as a tombak dhapur, that has a naga head at each side of its base, the naga bodies twine together and form the odo-odo. The tombak is luk 7. I think there is possibly one of the Karaton Jogja pusakas that is bandhotan, but I don't know if it is a keris or a tombak. In the SKA pakem keris bandhotan has 11 luk, but it is pretty widespread practice that if a waved keris agrees with a known dhapur in all except the number of waves it is acceptable to give it as that dhapur + the number of luk, so FX, Keris Dhapur Bandhotan Luk Lima for a keris that has ricikan that agrees to bandhotan, but only 5 luk. I'm a member of Academia.com, and I used to have the premium pay membership, I dropped that pay membership because I began to get a bit annoyed with Academia, they send you a message every time your name gets mentioned in some publication or other, but regrettably there are several people who have the same name that I do, there's a marine biologist, a 19th century English historian, and others that have a name that is close enough to my name for their little machine to think we're the same person. It doesn't even stop there, I think I've been sent well over 100 notifications of genuine mentions of my name in some paper or book or other, when I have already seen that mention. Only today I got advised for the umpteenth time that my name is mentioned in a South Sulawesi archaeology paper, it is a genuine mention, but they've told me many more times than once. It is very annoying getting continual emails that do not relate to anything that you might have done, or multiple emails that relate to something you have done. But it is a twin edged sword, because you get sent publications that are mostly relevant to your own field and that you can download. I have about 200 academic papers that I have downloaded thanks to what gets sent to me from Academia, these are not all keris related papers but they are related to other stuff I'm involved in. I'd say that on balance it is certainly worth joining, but don't get sucked in to the "pay" version.