Can anybody ID this sabre-ish sword?

Vaarok · 28th March 2009, 10:43 PM

Hi everybody, sorry I'll probably end up a one-shot wonder who asks his question and then leaves, but I'm far more a bayonets-and-firearms sort than bladed weapons. Thing is, at a local auction I snagged a Japanese Cavalry sword, and this unknown blade, for $55 apiece. I posted over at Gunboards gloating about the Jap Cav Sabre, and a friend who posts there as Trenchwarfare, went ape about the second sword, thinking it a far more significant find. This struck me as odd, because he's a fairly well known collector of Japanese items, and I know the Japanese sword was a great find in great shape.

Me, I tried google, I tried google image search, and I tried using search terms and browsing past threads. No dice.

So, help me sword people, if you please. What do I have, where's it from?

If it helps, the collection being auctioned did seem to have a lot of what I believed to be bladed weapons of Phillipino origin, and Trenchwarfare suggested the blade was Spanish Colonial.

Thanks in advance.

Atlantia · 29th March 2009, 10:13 AM

Hi and welcome to the group

My first thought was Dutch colonial but its really not my area. I'm sure the experts will be along to ID it soon.
Looks like two good buys though, congrats!

Gene

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 01:54 PM

Hi Vaarok,
Welcome to our forum!! and thank you for posting this. At a cursory glance, my impression is that this is likely from either Central America or further south in Latin America. I know that one of the Levine knife books shows a bayonet form with this style ring on the guard as Central American, and the piece overall seems to feel Spanish colonial.

I think one feature is the re-profiled cavalry sabre blade, which appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry sabre blade with the hatchet point blade ground to a point.

In the case of certain guardless sabres that seem to have begun appearing about 10-15 years ago that typically had these British blades reground into an almost kampilan stylized looking point, they were originally thought to be from Spanish Morocco, and termed 'Berber' sabres. Further research revealed that these were more likely from Spanish colonial spheres and indeed included Philippines regions. These were among a number of such hybrid anomalies that seem to have been 'bringbacks' from the Spanish-American War, and I believe if memory serves, at least one had markings specifically locating it to Cuba. There was also compelling suggestion that these were from either the Phillipines archipelago or in contact regions.

It is unclear how or why so many of these British light cavalry blades seem to have entered the Spanish colonial sphere, unless there may have been surplus numbers of them in the Peninsula after the Napoleonic period. In any case, your example is quite honestly something I have not seen before, but if anyone will recognize something similar, it will be here!!!

Thank you again for joining us!
All best regards,
Jim

ward · 29th March 2009, 03:36 PM

The end of that blade has been reshaped. European blade probally English.
Are there any markings on the blade close to the crossguard ?

Jim McDougall · 29th March 2009, 05:09 PM

I forgot to note Trenchwarfares assessment had also been for Spanish colonial. Its always frustrating when subsequent posts dont acknowledge same, except obviously in cross posts. It gives the impression previous comments or posts are not being read.
Trench plz excuse the oversight

All the best,
Jim

Vaarok · 29th March 2009, 07:04 PM

There appears to be a serial number (8204, I think it was) on one side of the crossguard, and 1903 on the other. I don't know if that's a date, but I rather doubt it. Otherwise, COMPLETELY devoid of markings. I like bayos and guns because I can hold up a barely-legible maker mark and go "See! It's factory-made to a pattern!" rather than this guesswork based on components and styles. Hey, y'never know. I'm starting to run out of gun-stuff to memorize, maybe this will be my next time-and-wallet soak.

Unfortunately, in retrospect, I kinda failed at that auction. I knew there were a variety of likely Phillipino blades, but all I bid on was this sword (a whim) and the Cav Sabre, which I was fairly sure of. Like I said, I specialize more in bayos and rifles. I shoulda stuck my card up for the sabre marked En Treue Fest, since I knew what that was and it topped out at a hundred fifty, but I had that strange conflict you sometimes get at shows and auctions where you have lots more disposable money than usual, but bid even more sparingly than usual. Also, I got to the auction late and didn't preview, so I was bidding seat-of-the-pants from the fifth row back based on what I could see.

In case anybody wants to berate me for what I passed up, or infer provenance from other pieces, the preview images are still up from the auctionhouse as of 3/29:

http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/ph...zip=13439&kwd=

Thanks for all the help. It's not a Cossack Shaska or a Turkish officer sabre, but it's neat enough to have for what I paid.

ward · 29th March 2009, 11:04 PM

could you give a closup pic of the 1903 mark

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2009, 01:42 AM

Hey Vaarok, I think its a pretty neat piece! and know what you mean....once upon a time I thought it was great to match a piece to a picture in a book and say, yup thats it!.
Then the bug got me, and now its all about detective work.....sleep is between mysteries, books are stashed all over, the addiction is overwhelming !

.....careful, it could getcha.
I'm glad you posted it, first one like it I've seen.
Thanks very much,
Jim

Vaarok · 30th March 2009, 08:01 PM

As requested. Nothing too special, just a 1903 on the crossguard. Serial (?) on the other side is the same exact font and actually also reads 1903, though it's hard to make out through the rust.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaarok

As requested. Nothing too special, just a 1903 on the crossguard. Serial (?) on the other side is the same exact font and actually also reads 1903, though it's hard to make out through the rust.

While the 1903 as a date would probably be pretty much right for this piece timewise, to me if it is repeated elsewhere on the item it would most likely be an inventory or serial number. I dont believe a date (year) would need to be repeated.

All best regards,
Jim

28th March 2009, 10:43 PM	#1
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	Can anybody ID this sabre-ish sword? Hi everybody, sorry I'll probably end up a one-shot wonder who asks his question and then leaves, but I'm far more a bayonets-and-firearms sort than bladed weapons. Thing is, at a local auction I snagged a Japanese Cavalry sword, and this unknown blade, for $55 apiece. I posted over at Gunboards gloating about the Jap Cav Sabre, and a friend who posts there as Trenchwarfare, went ape about the second sword, thinking it a far more significant find. This struck me as odd, because he's a fairly well known collector of Japanese items, and I know the Japanese sword was a great find in great shape. Me, I tried google, I tried google image search, and I tried using search terms and browsing past threads. No dice. So, help me sword people, if you please. What do I have, where's it from? If it helps, the collection being auctioned did seem to have a lot of what I believed to be bladed weapons of Phillipino origin, and Trenchwarfare suggested the blade was Spanish Colonial. Thanks in advance.

29th March 2009, 01:54 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	Hi Vaarok, Welcome to our forum!! and thank you for posting this. At a cursory glance, my impression is that this is likely from either Central America or further south in Latin America. I know that one of the Levine knife books shows a bayonet form with this style ring on the guard as Central American, and the piece overall seems to feel Spanish colonial. I think one feature is the re-profiled cavalry sabre blade, which appears to be a British M1796 light cavalry sabre blade with the hatchet point blade ground to a point. In the case of certain guardless sabres that seem to have begun appearing about 10-15 years ago that typically had these British blades reground into an almost kampilan stylized looking point, they were originally thought to be from Spanish Morocco, and termed 'Berber' sabres. Further research revealed that these were more likely from Spanish colonial spheres and indeed included Philippines regions. These were among a number of such hybrid anomalies that seem to have been 'bringbacks' from the Spanish-American War, and I believe if memory serves, at least one had markings specifically locating it to Cuba. There was also compelling suggestion that these were from either the Phillipines archipelago or in contact regions. It is unclear how or why so many of these British light cavalry blades seem to have entered the Spanish colonial sphere, unless there may have been surplus numbers of them in the Peninsula after the Napoleonic period. In any case, your example is quite honestly something I have not seen before, but if anyone will recognize something similar, it will be here!!! Thank you again for joining us! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th March 2009 at 03:59 PM.

29th March 2009, 10:13 AM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi and welcome to the group My first thought was Dutch colonial but its really not my area. I'm sure the experts will be along to ID it soon. Looks like two good buys though, congrats! Gene

29th March 2009, 03:36 PM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The end of that blade has been reshaped. European blade probally English. Are there any markings on the blade close to the crossguard ?

29th March 2009, 05:09 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	I forgot to note Trenchwarfares assessment had also been for Spanish colonial. Its always frustrating when subsequent posts dont acknowledge same, except obviously in cross posts. It gives the impression previous comments or posts are not being read. Trench plz excuse the oversight All the best, Jim

29th March 2009, 07:04 PM	#6
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	There appears to be a serial number (8204, I think it was) on one side of the crossguard, and 1903 on the other. I don't know if that's a date, but I rather doubt it. Otherwise, COMPLETELY devoid of markings. I like bayos and guns because I can hold up a barely-legible maker mark and go "See! It's factory-made to a pattern!" rather than this guesswork based on components and styles. Hey, y'never know. I'm starting to run out of gun-stuff to memorize, maybe this will be my next time-and-wallet soak. Unfortunately, in retrospect, I kinda failed at that auction. I knew there were a variety of likely Phillipino blades, but all I bid on was this sword (a whim) and the Cav Sabre, which I was fairly sure of. Like I said, I specialize more in bayos and rifles. I shoulda stuck my card up for the sabre marked En Treue Fest, since I knew what that was and it topped out at a hundred fifty, but I had that strange conflict you sometimes get at shows and auctions where you have lots more disposable money than usual, but bid even more sparingly than usual. Also, I got to the auction late and didn't preview, so I was bidding seat-of-the-pants from the fifth row back based on what I could see. In case anybody wants to berate me for what I passed up, or infer provenance from other pieces, the preview images are still up from the auctionhouse as of 3/29: http://www.auctionzip.com/cgi-bin/ph...zip=13439&kwd= Thanks for all the help. It's not a Cossack Shaska or a Turkish officer sabre, but it's neat enough to have for what I paid.

29th March 2009, 11:04 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	could you give a closup pic of the 1903 mark

30th March 2009, 01:42 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,746	Hey Vaarok, I think its a pretty neat piece! and know what you mean....once upon a time I thought it was great to match a piece to a picture in a book and say, yup thats it!. Then the bug got me, and now its all about detective work.....sleep is between mysteries, books are stashed all over, the addiction is overwhelming ! .....careful, it could getcha. I'm glad you posted it, first one like it I've seen. Thanks very much, Jim

30th March 2009, 08:01 PM	#9
Vaarok Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 28	As requested. Nothing too special, just a 1903 on the crossguard. Serial (?) on the other side is the same exact font and actually also reads 1903, though it's hard to make out through the rust.