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Old 14th August 2022, 06:36 PM   #1
mteuthof
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Default Any ideas what the dapur is?

Hello all, I recently acquired this keris but I can't find what dapur it is. Any ideas?
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Old 14th August 2022, 10:28 PM   #2
A. G. Maisey
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If it did not have luk, what might it be?
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Old 15th August 2022, 02:28 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post
If it did not have luk, what might it be?
Without luk, I'd say dhapur brojol.
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Old 15th August 2022, 06:02 AM   #4
A. G. Maisey
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Gandhik?
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Old 15th August 2022, 06:25 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post
Gandhik?
Hm yeah I didn't pay enough attention to this.
Looking at it again, I am not sure if you are prompting the question because an opinion of "brojol" doesn't hold water based on something to do with the gandhik of this keris such as
  • its gandhik is long
  • there is no gandhik

I'm leaning towards the former due to the differences in angles marked with red, and the gandhik marked with yellow.

If I'm to refer to the Keraton Surakarta pakem as published by Yayasan Damartaji, I don't know what dhapur this keris would be if it didn't have luk. If this keris can be said to have no gandhik then intuitively and perhaps wrongly I would say dhapur sepang.
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Old 15th August 2022, 07:30 AM   #6
A. G. Maisey
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Any keris with a longish gandhik has either "kebo" or "mahisa" (maesa) as a part of the name, both words (there are spelling variations) mean "kerbau", "water buffalo", just different language levels.

Have a look at drawing #4 in the pakem.

Incidentally, although this book is probably the best guide we have, there is not universal agreement on everything between its covers.
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Old 15th August 2022, 09:10 AM   #7
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Thanks Alan, I see now.

So if I'm following correctly, it seems that we can use the kebo or mahesa description for this keris. But it isn't strictly dhapur kebo lajer because it has luk.

Would this mean that this keris is "diluar pakem"* and doesn't have a dhapur designation, if we're going by the Surakarta dhapur manuscript?

*Diluar means "outside of".
I'm unsure of how to translate pakem as its Javanese, but the usage in this context would say that a pakem is something that is used as a source or reference - akin to a rulebook or a style guide.
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Old 15th August 2022, 01:00 PM   #8
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This blade would certainly work as kebo lajer luk 7.

If I remember the gist of an earlier thread correctly, luk could be added to some (even all?) straight dhapur and designated a s such. (If adding luk does not change the blades into another, more specific designation, I assume.)

Some of the dhapur with luk may have different numbers of luk. If I recall correctly, some may be open to non-standard numbers, too. I haven't been able to fathom though when this might be considered legit and when not...

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Old 15th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #9
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
Any keris with a longish gandhik has either "kebo" or "mahisa" (maesa) as a part of the name, both words (there are spelling variations) mean "kerbau", "water buffalo", just different language levels.
What is the reason for the use of more than a single language level for use with such (semi-)official dhapur designations from any given keraton?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 15th August 2022, 02:30 PM   #10
A. G. Maisey
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Jaga -- yes, a "pakem" is a guide book, we have all sorts of pakems, even pakems about cooking.

The Surakarta guidebook relating to keris is directed at very high level keris, kraton keris, in kraton thought a keris like this one is not really worth consideration, so yes, 'diluar pakem' but it does not matter, because that particular pakem cannot in reality be applied to this level of keris.

Kai, different levels of speech are used in formal situations, in Javanese we have Ngoko, low level, everybody can speak Ngoko, and Sinuhun, ie the Pakubuwana uses Ngoko to speak to underlings --- well, at least in formal situations --- but all those underlings need to use Krama, or Krama Inggil to speak to Sinuhun, then we have Krama Madya and I'm not real sure on the precise etiquette for use of that, Krama Madya is between Ngoko & Krama.

Now, these language levels are not different languages, they are the same language, but some words within that language have different levels of respect and the correct "respect" word must be used instead of the common word when speaking to a person who is hierarchically superior.

So, the language levels apply within a hierarchy, but where no hierarchy applies most people would be using Ngoko with each other, or the situation can occur where both parties speak Krama to one another. Hierarchical levels can change, according to the situation and the relationship of one person to another.

As an example, when a young lady I knew was married, she married far above her station, she was a commoner, a clerk in a bank, her husband to be was a member of an old noble family. The eldest person in the family was the boy's mother. The family held regular meetings, usually once a month to discuss matters of common concern. The bride to be had never needed to learn Krama, nor Krama Inggil, nor Krama Madya, but before the wedding could go ahead she needed the basic minimum of an ability to use Krama, because without this language level she would not have been able to speak with her mother-in-law at the family meetings. In normal, non-formal conversation, they both used Ngoko, but in the formal situation the new family member needed to speak Krama to her mother-in-law, and mother-in-law spoke to her in Ngoko.

At the present time, many people try to avoid the hierarchical language levels if possible, so they use Bahasa Indonesia, a far more simple language than Javanese at any level.

It is my understanding that within the inner circles of kraton society there are at least eleven levels of language, one of which is sung in impromptu verse.

So, why different words for the same object?

Depends who you are, who you are speaking with, and the situation.

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Old 15th August 2022, 07:01 PM   #11
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Thanks everyone for your input. Another relation of my suggested that it could be dapur sempanah kalentang with an extremely long gandik.
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Old 16th August 2022, 07:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mteuthof View Post
Thanks everyone for your input. Another relation of my suggested that it could be dapur sempanah kalentang with an extremely long gandik.
All versions of what people are calling Sempana Kalentang seem to have BOTH kembang kacang and greneng, so i don't think this keris can qualify for that dhapur. It is a kebo with luk 7.
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