Hand made sword, wondering about origin

Ken Maddock · 31st July 2015, 11:13 PM

Hi all
Below is a thread I started on European armoury
It was suggested the sword might have an ethnic origin so any information gratefully accepted

Picked this item up last night and am very interested in opinions
It is 25 inches long with a blade of 21 inches
Blade is nice and springy, grip has definite age and well made, fits well into the hand. Guard is made of brass and nicely shaped, peening well done and definite age, overall no markings what so ever
Definitely not a school play item as the edge is v sharp and nicely balanced.
Looks to be folding flaws on the blade where the lamination is failed, I have tried to photo these but can try again tomorrow if they do not come out.

I would not be one to clean items but I might give it a rub of a damp cloth if information might be gleaned.

Shaping of blade only on one side with no fuller but has central spine running down to edge fully on one side and top third on other side
Story is, found bricked into wall in v old house in Ireland.
Has the look of some of weapons I have seen home manufactured for irish rebels in 1798 rebellion and later, maybe me being romantic but you have to dream
Any taughts or opinions?
Best regards
Ken

Ken Maddock · 31st July 2015, 11:14 PM

Sorry one more image showing peening

Battara · 1st August 2015, 06:25 PM

This looks like it is a Filipino piece from around the beginning of the 20th century, from Luzon Island in the Philippines (showing the Spanish influence). May be even from the Tagalogs on Luzon.

Ian · 1st August 2015, 07:57 PM

Jose:

Those were my thoughts too when I first looked at the pics. Spanish-influenced hilt, probably Filipino in origin. Perhaps further pics will define the origins better.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This looks like it is a Filipino piece from around the beginning of the 20th century, from Luzon Island in the Philippines (showing the Spanish influence). May be even from the Tagalogs on Luzon.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2015, 08:12 PM

I am with the others in considering possible Philippine origin for this item.
For me the knuckleguard with strap over pommel corresponds to many of the Spanish colonial forms deriving from espada ancha and evolved into Philippine versions. The crude nature of course suggests typical colonial ersatz type weapons, and the blade reminds me of the 'talibon' types from the Phiippines (though my exposure to these weapons is admittedly limited).

While it is tempting to link this to events such as the Irish Rebellion noted in 1798 based on the context in which it was found, these other possibilities should be considered as well. This rebellion was most certainly the source for any number of weapons from tools and implements to any number of ersatz fashioned arms, it would take other similar and provenanced examples to support the attribution.

The link to the bronze age sword said to have been used by one of these Irish men in this rebellion is sensational and intriguing, and well illustrates the often desperate innovation which would be employed during such intense events.

Sajen · 1st August 2015, 10:25 PM

Luzon is a good guess, I've seen many similar ones from there but most of the time the hilts have been from horn.

Rick · 1st August 2015, 10:46 PM

Since this is listed in two forums :

I'm not entirely convinced this is Philippine; any more back story on this piece Ken ?
Purchased in Ireland ?
I can't recall seeing a Philippine sword with a guard constructed the way this one is; usually they are one sheet/piece of metal .
This one is not .
The cross section of the blade is different from Philippine ones of this type also (if I'm understanding your description of it correctly) .

Ken Maddock · 2nd August 2015, 08:33 PM

Hi
I was away for a few days sorry about the delay in reply.
There is no further story
I bought it off a guy who regularly gives me a call and i am always surprised by the great items he turns up, i got a full inventory of IRA grenades and ammunition loading equipment from the 1920's off him and it was fasinating.
Simple story was that it was built into the dry stone wall of a house being renovated in rural ireland, house was v old, and that is all i know
I can take any pictures required
Hard to describe blade so i will put up a few pictures tomorrow when i get a chance to take some pictures
I googled Philippine Luzon sword and I see where you are coming from in the similarities, it is a fairily generic shape alright, hopefully images of the blade cross section may help more in the identification
Regards and thank you all for your interest and comments

Ken

Jim McDougall · 2nd August 2015, 10:36 PM

Hi Ken,
While certainly not likely to apply here, by analogy, sometimes strangely incongruent items turn up in odd contexts. One example some time back was a broadsword which turned up in Ontario, Canada, and unbelievably was taken for a sword from the crusades, or of the period at least. This led to the quite expected business of possible early visitation from Europe, Vikings and all sorts of speculation.
Naturally, as reason prevailed, research revealed the sword was a Sudanese kaskara, brought back from those campaigns by a British soldier who had moved to Canada shortly thereafter.

Then there was the case of the photo of a Sioux Chief in 1880s with a Japanese katana hanging on the wall behind him!

These oddities are many, and make for truly interesting investigation and great stories!

Each weapon has its own, and is unique for it!

All the best,
Jim

Ken Maddock · 3rd August 2015, 10:32 AM

Hi
Please find attached more images of blade
A good bit of de lamination or miss forging which I hope you can see
Also I hope you can see how it is completely flat on one side
shaping down to sharp edge only on one side with central spine in middle
I will do a sketch if you think it might help
Regards
Ken

Ian · 3rd August 2015, 04:39 PM

Ken:

Your blade reminds me of another Spanish colonial sword that I posted several years ago here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2068 and before that here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html.

That sword had a typical Spanish D-guard with a tang peened over the end of the guard. It's Spanish origin was confirmed by an inscription, Recuerdo Republicano, at forte. The blade of that sword was also flat on one side and peaked on the other to create a triangular cross sectional profile. I think we concluded that it was probably from the Philippines, but perhaps Mexico or elsewhere in the former Spanish colonies where independence from Spain had been sought.

Why a Spanish colonial sword would end up in the wall of an old Irish house is an intriguing question. One could probably write an interesting novel about that! I'm a fan of historical fiction.

Ian.

Rick · 3rd August 2015, 04:52 PM

Completely flat on one side . That's where I had questions about origin . One flat side would argue more for a Philippine origin . Still, a strange place for something Philippine to show up .

Of course, we can't discount the possibility it belonged to one of Gracie O'Malley's crew .

Ken Maddock · 3rd August 2015, 09:04 PM

Hi
I can see the Philippine influence in the link alright.
Spanish Armada was 1588, so I guess that rules out direct Spanish link

I am going to send images to the 1798 museum and see if they can shed any light on hand made swords from that period

I may never find out though and yes Rick I wish we could link it to the famous irish pirate

Would anyone hazard a guess on age of the sword

Your time spent commenting is much appreciated

Regards
Ken

Robert · 4th August 2015, 12:38 AM

Hello Ken, I totally agree with Jose's assessment, I also believe this to be a Filipino sword that was most likely made in the late 1890's to early 20th century on Luzon.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 4th August 2015, 06:56 AM

If this is a Philippine revolutionary sword, then the period 1895-1901 would probably be most likely for its manufacture and use.

The Katipuneros were getting seriously organized and armed in 1895-1896, with the Philippine revolution breaking out in August, 1896. The defeat of Spain in 1898 by US and Filipino forces led to the declaration of the First Philippine Republic by Emilio Aguinaldo, which in turn led to a protracted conflict with the US. The First Republic ended on March 23, 1901 when Aguinaldo was defeated and surrendered to American forces.

Ian

31st July 2015, 11:13 PM	#1
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hand made sword, wondering about origin Hi all Below is a thread I started on European armoury It was suggested the sword might have an ethnic origin so any information gratefully accepted Picked this item up last night and am very interested in opinions It is 25 inches long with a blade of 21 inches Blade is nice and springy, grip has definite age and well made, fits well into the hand. Guard is made of brass and nicely shaped, peening well done and definite age, overall no markings what so ever Definitely not a school play item as the edge is v sharp and nicely balanced. Looks to be folding flaws on the blade where the lamination is failed, I have tried to photo these but can try again tomorrow if they do not come out. I would not be one to clean items but I might give it a rub of a damp cloth if information might be gleaned. Shaping of blade only on one side with no fuller but has central spine running down to edge fully on one side and top third on other side Story is, found bricked into wall in v old house in Ireland. Has the look of some of weapons I have seen home manufactured for irish rebels in 1798 rebellion and later, maybe me being romantic but you have to dream Any taughts or opinions? Best regards Ken Attached Images

31st July 2015, 11:14 PM	#2
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Sorry one more image showing peening Attached Images

2nd August 2015, 08:33 PM	#8
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi I was away for a few days sorry about the delay in reply. There is no further story I bought it off a guy who regularly gives me a call and i am always surprised by the great items he turns up, i got a full inventory of IRA grenades and ammunition loading equipment from the 1920's off him and it was fasinating. Simple story was that it was built into the dry stone wall of a house being renovated in rural ireland, house was v old, and that is all i know I can take any pictures required Hard to describe blade so i will put up a few pictures tomorrow when i get a chance to take some pictures I googled Philippine Luzon sword and I see where you are coming from in the similarities, it is a fairily generic shape alright, hopefully images of the blade cross section may help more in the identification Regards and thank you all for your interest and comments Ken Last edited by Ken Maddock; 2nd August 2015 at 08:57 PM.

3rd August 2015, 10:32 AM	#10
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi Please find attached more images of blade A good bit of de lamination or miss forging which I hope you can see Also I hope you can see how it is completely flat on one side shaping down to sharp edge only on one side with central spine in middle I will do a sketch if you think it might help Regards Ken Attached Images

3rd August 2015, 04:39 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,028	Ken: Your blade reminds me of another Spanish colonial sword that I posted several years ago here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2068 and before that here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html. That sword had a typical Spanish D-guard with a tang peened over the end of the guard. It's Spanish origin was confirmed by an inscription, Recuerdo Republicano, at forte. The blade of that sword was also flat on one side and peaked on the other to create a triangular cross sectional profile. I think we concluded that it was probably from the Philippines, but perhaps Mexico or elsewhere in the former Spanish colonies where independence from Spain had been sought. Why a Spanish colonial sword would end up in the wall of an old Irish house is an intriguing question. One could probably write an interesting novel about that! I'm a fan of historical fiction. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 3rd August 2015 at 04:49 PM.

1st August 2015, 06:25 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	This looks like it is a Filipino piece from around the beginning of the 20th century, from Luzon Island in the Philippines (showing the Spanish influence). May be even from the Tagalogs on Luzon.

1st August 2015, 08:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I am with the others in considering possible Philippine origin for this item. For me the knuckleguard with strap over pommel corresponds to many of the Spanish colonial forms deriving from espada ancha and evolved into Philippine versions. The crude nature of course suggests typical colonial ersatz type weapons, and the blade reminds me of the 'talibon' types from the Phiippines (though my exposure to these weapons is admittedly limited). While it is tempting to link this to events such as the Irish Rebellion noted in 1798 based on the context in which it was found, these other possibilities should be considered as well. This rebellion was most certainly the source for any number of weapons from tools and implements to any number of ersatz fashioned arms, it would take other similar and provenanced examples to support the attribution. The link to the bronze age sword said to have been used by one of these Irish men in this rebellion is sensational and intriguing, and well illustrates the often desperate innovation which would be employed during such intense events.

1st August 2015, 10:25 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Luzon is a good guess, I've seen many similar ones from there but most of the time the hilts have been from horn.

1st August 2015, 10:46 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Since this is listed in two forums : I'm not entirely convinced this is Philippine; any more back story on this piece Ken ? Purchased in Ireland ? I can't recall seeing a Philippine sword with a guard constructed the way this one is; usually they are one sheet/piece of metal . This one is not . The cross section of the blade is different from Philippine ones of this type also (if I'm understanding your description of it correctly) .

2nd August 2015, 10:36 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Ken, While certainly not likely to apply here, by analogy, sometimes strangely incongruent items turn up in odd contexts. One example some time back was a broadsword which turned up in Ontario, Canada, and unbelievably was taken for a sword from the crusades, or of the period at least. This led to the quite expected business of possible early visitation from Europe, Vikings and all sorts of speculation. Naturally, as reason prevailed, research revealed the sword was a Sudanese kaskara, brought back from those campaigns by a British soldier who had moved to Canada shortly thereafter. Then there was the case of the photo of a Sioux Chief in 1880s with a Japanese katana hanging on the wall behind him! These oddities are many, and make for truly interesting investigation and great stories! Each weapon has its own, and is unique for it! All the best, Jim

3rd August 2015, 04:52 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Completely flat on one side . That's where I had questions about origin . One flat side would argue more for a Philippine origin . Still, a strange place for something Philippine to show up . Of course, we can't discount the possibility it belonged to one of Gracie O'Malley's crew .

3rd August 2015, 09:04 PM	#13
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi I can see the Philippine influence in the link alright. Spanish Armada was 1588, so I guess that rules out direct Spanish link I am going to send images to the 1798 museum and see if they can shed any light on hand made swords from that period I may never find out though and yes Rick I wish we could link it to the famous irish pirate Would anyone hazard a guess on age of the sword Your time spent commenting is much appreciated Regards Ken

4th August 2015, 12:38 AM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ken, I totally agree with Jose's assessment, I also believe this to be a Filipino sword that was most likely made in the late 1890's to early 20th century on Luzon. Best, Robert

4th August 2015, 06:56 AM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,028	If this is a Philippine revolutionary sword, then the period 1895-1901 would probably be most likely for its manufacture and use. The Katipuneros were getting seriously organized and armed in 1895-1896, with the Philippine revolution breaking out in August, 1896. The defeat of Spain in 1898 by US and Filipino forces led to the declaration of the First Philippine Republic by Emilio Aguinaldo, which in turn led to a protracted conflict with the US. The First Republic ended on March 23, 1901 when Aguinaldo was defeated and surrendered to American forces. Ian