Burma Naval Dha??

carlitobrigante · 17th October 2010, 09:06 PM

Hi guys

Got this fairly recently, swopped it for something else with another collector friend I know.

I believe its from 20th century. Its a very well balanced and extremely sharp blade and has had a scabbard replacement at some point recently.

The interesting bit is the gold inlaid 'anchor' symbol on the blade. Im being told this likely denotes it was used by the 'Burmese Navy'? I not too clued up on Burmese navy forces during the early part of the 20th century but I guess it was quite an irregular force made up on small patrol boats which would then patrol rivers and the coast.

The anchor is quite stylised though and it wouldnt surprise me if their was no naval connection at all and the anchor stamp is a makers mark of some kind?

Id love for more knowledgable folks opinions and wonder if any of you have come across this mark on any other blades from the region?

aiontay · 17th October 2010, 11:12 PM

I'm afraid I can't say anything about the dha, beyond the observation that in the early 20th century Burma was a British colony and then was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. Any naval force would have been under one of those two navies until 1949.

carlitobrigante · 18th October 2010, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

I'm afraid I can't say anything about the dha, beyond the observation that in the early 20th century Burma was a British colony and then was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. Any naval force would have been under one of those two navies until 1949.

Hi Aiontay, thanks for the input. I was aware of that, guess I meant 'local burmese naval forces under control of the British or Japanese' as i dont think this one dates back to the late 19th century before us Brits came a knocking.

I imagine though any coastal / river units that Myanmar did have at the time of the occupation were not simply replaced with British / Japanese forces, and would likely continue to be used?

There must have been quite a few boats used for river patrols etc which were still manned by Burmese and controlled by local government?

I figure though those are questions that will be impossible to answer due to the lack of any written evidence or records. My main reason for posting was to see if anyone else has come across this anchor mark elsewhere and if so give details on the blade it was adorning. If its a makers mark or a naval insignia i would have thought it would have turned up elsewhere previously?

Dmitry · 18th October 2010, 12:22 AM

The other possibility might be that it was a present/souvenir of a sailor of officer stationed there, or visiting those parts on a military cruise.

carlitobrigante · 18th October 2010, 12:38 AM

yeah good point Dmitry. I suppose aswell i shouldnt be so certain its early 20th century. Could be its older and its just had a re-wrapped hilt along with a newer scabbard?

aiontay · 18th October 2010, 03:02 AM

Yeah, I'd think a presentation blade might be what it is. As for local forces continuing on during the British colonial era, I'd rather doubt it. The British definitely did not recruit ethnic Burmans, and the Chin, Kachin, and Karen the British did recruit for the colonial army weren't seafaring cultures. The exception might be Karen, mainly Pwo, that lived in the delta, but I'm not aware of them having much of a maritime tradition. It is possible, but I doubt there were enough delta Karens to constitute much of a naval force.

Nathaniel · 18th October 2010, 03:17 AM

Interesting piece. Thanks for sharing Carlitobrigante

I don't know much about these, but they are very interesting. Just for reference this is the 2nd brass inlaid anchor dha I've seen

How long is the blade & handle? Thickness at the spine of the hilt?

aiontay · 18th October 2010, 03:50 AM

A couple of other points while I'm thinking about it. First, remember for the majority of time under British rule, Burma was administered as a province of India; it was not until the 1930s that is was split off, and even then, most of the colonial troops were from India. Consequently, any "native" weapons were as likely to be Indian as Burmese.

Second, historically the Burman cultural and political centers were in Upper Burma, for example Pagan and Mandalay. There was a good reason they weren't in Lower Burma. Lower Burma was a malarial swamp! It was only after an infusion of European capital and technology that the swamps were drained, allowing for the development of rice farming, fish farming and exploitation of the timber resources. This led to a major demographic, economic, and political shift in Burma from Upper Burma to Lower Burma. Consequently, any local boats on the water (including Pwo Karen) would likely be a result of colonial administration, not a carry over from earlier times. About the only exception to this would be among the Mon an in the Tenassarim Division, but I am not aware of any colonial forces raised specifically among the Mon, and Tenassarim(sp?) has always been something of a backwater.

Andy Stevens · 18th October 2010, 04:29 PM

Hi Carlitobrigante,
We saw your dha and thought you might like to see what it used to look like! We had the age down as mid to late 19thC, see what you think from the pictures!
Andy

carlitobrigante · 18th October 2010, 05:37 PM

thanks for the responses guys...

Andy - Thanks for posting those pics! The guy I got it from has done a great job cleaning it up and replacing the scabbard. Much easier to believe its 19th cent when i see those 'before' pictures. And youve shown me that the handle cord wasnt replaced recently along with the scabbard. Many thanks.

Nathaniel - What was the other piece youve seen the inlaid anchor insignia on? Any pics?

For those who asked for measurements, blade is almost exactly 24 inchs, approx 33 1/2 inchs in total.

The more info i get the more it seems it is 19th century from the native naval forces stationed on the irriwaddy river to protect traders etc. Ive been given some good sources of books where they are mentioned so time to hit the research trail!

David · 18th October 2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

The more info i get the more it seems it is 19th century from the native naval forces stationed on the irriwaddy river to protect traders etc. Ive been given some good sources of books where they are mentioned so time to hit the research trail!

Are you thinking then that this belonged to a member of some form of Burmese navy before the British arrived. That would be 1886, with guerrilla resistance continuing for about 4 or so years.
I find the form of the anchor interesting if indeed this is from a native navy pre-1886. The form of anchor as we recognize it is not really that old. The first anchor with curved arms was 1813 and this anchor seems to show further development that wouldn't take place until past the middle of the 19th century. Add to that that these anchor developments came from the then rulers of the seas, the good ol' British Empire. So it seems a bit odd to me that an anchor like this would become a symbol for a native Burmese navy so relatively soon after it's very Western development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Anchor

Andrew · 18th October 2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

Hi Carlitobrigante,
We saw your dha and thought you might like to see what it used to look like! We had the age down as mid to late 19thC, see what you think from the pictures!
Andy

Hi Andy. What makes you feel this is a 19th C. sword?

Andrew

David · 18th October 2010, 08:33 PM

Can we find any history of an organized Burmese Navy prior to 1940?

Nathaniel · 19th October 2010, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlitobrigante

Nathaniel - What was the other piece youve seen the inlaid anchor insignia on? Any pics?
!

Yes, it was nearly identical...same blade shape and similar inlaid brass anchor. Sorry no pics, just something I saw at a show

M ELEY · 19th October 2010, 03:23 AM

I know that British naval swords occasionally had anchor markings, but actually the closest pattern of anchor that this dha resembles is the m1801 French boarding cutlass, with its snug curved end and unfowled anchor. The m1833 pattern blade likewise used the anchor symbol in the exact location on the sword as this one. Interesting to note that even the blades of this dha and the French pattern look very alike...

carlitobrigante · 19th October 2010, 06:43 PM

thanks for the info m eley. Tracked down a picture of an anchor marked french boarding cutless dated to 1806 along the spine from the klingenthal sword factory. The anchor is obscured by rust / patina but what you can see does show someresemblance. Interesting the french seem to have been using this insignia in 1806 when the British only invented it in 1813 according to wikipedia? Although wikipedia should of course never been taken as gospel.

My feeling is such a distinct style of anchor, with the circles and crescent shaped marks at the top along with the triangular arms, give me a good chance of dating this thing eventually, just need to hit the books and find a similar type.

thanks to all for the help chaps, i should be getting sent some pics of a dha with the same insignia (possibly the one nathaniel is refering to) so will post them here if i get then.

carlitobrigante · 22nd October 2010, 04:54 PM

i tracked down the other example of these that Nathaniel refered to, its just been put up on ebay, not sure if im allowed to post the link here but search ebay for naval dha and you cant miss it.

An almost identical example, same cord grip, same profile.

Im also being told that the markings at the top part of the anchor on my dha look like Burmese script. I assumed it was just a stylised anchor but now i have looked into it he has a point.

lots of stuff for me to look into, thanks for the help

17th October 2010, 09:06 PM	#1
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	Burma Naval Dha?? Hi guys Got this fairly recently, swopped it for something else with another collector friend I know. I believe its from 20th century. Its a very well balanced and extremely sharp blade and has had a scabbard replacement at some point recently. The interesting bit is the gold inlaid 'anchor' symbol on the blade. Im being told this likely denotes it was used by the 'Burmese Navy'? I not too clued up on Burmese navy forces during the early part of the 20th century but I guess it was quite an irregular force made up on small patrol boats which would then patrol rivers and the coast. The anchor is quite stylised though and it wouldnt surprise me if their was no naval connection at all and the anchor stamp is a makers mark of some kind? Id love for more knowledgable folks opinions and wonder if any of you have come across this mark on any other blades from the region?

18th October 2010, 04:29 PM	#9
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hi Carlitobrigante, We saw your dha and thought you might like to see what it used to look like! We had the age down as mid to late 19thC, see what you think from the pictures! Andy Attached Images

18th October 2010, 05:37 PM	#10
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	thanks for the responses guys... Andy - Thanks for posting those pics! The guy I got it from has done a great job cleaning it up and replacing the scabbard. Much easier to believe its 19th cent when i see those 'before' pictures. And youve shown me that the handle cord wasnt replaced recently along with the scabbard. Many thanks. Nathaniel - What was the other piece youve seen the inlaid anchor insignia on? Any pics? For those who asked for measurements, blade is almost exactly 24 inchs, approx 33 1/2 inchs in total. The more info i get the more it seems it is 19th century from the native naval forces stationed on the irriwaddy river to protect traders etc. Ive been given some good sources of books where they are mentioned so time to hit the research trail! Last edited by carlitobrigante; 18th October 2010 at 06:17 PM.

22nd October 2010, 04:54 PM	#17
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	i tracked down the other example of these that Nathaniel refered to, its just been put up on ebay, not sure if im allowed to post the link here but search ebay for naval dha and you cant miss it. An almost identical example, same cord grip, same profile. Im also being told that the markings at the top part of the anchor on my dha look like Burmese script. I assumed it was just a stylised anchor but now i have looked into it he has a point. lots of stuff for me to look into, thanks for the help Last edited by carlitobrigante; 23rd October 2010 at 12:08 AM.

17th October 2010, 11:12 PM	#2
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	I'm afraid I can't say anything about the dha, beyond the observation that in the early 20th century Burma was a British colony and then was occupied by the Japanese during WWII. Any naval force would have been under one of those two navies until 1949.

18th October 2010, 12:22 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The other possibility might be that it was a present/souvenir of a sailor of officer stationed there, or visiting those parts on a military cruise.

18th October 2010, 12:38 AM	#5
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	yeah good point Dmitry. I suppose aswell i shouldnt be so certain its early 20th century. Could be its older and its just had a re-wrapped hilt along with a newer scabbard?

18th October 2010, 03:02 AM	#6
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Yeah, I'd think a presentation blade might be what it is. As for local forces continuing on during the British colonial era, I'd rather doubt it. The British definitely did not recruit ethnic Burmans, and the Chin, Kachin, and Karen the British did recruit for the colonial army weren't seafaring cultures. The exception might be Karen, mainly Pwo, that lived in the delta, but I'm not aware of them having much of a maritime tradition. It is possible, but I doubt there were enough delta Karens to constitute much of a naval force.

18th October 2010, 03:17 AM	#7
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Interesting piece. Thanks for sharing Carlitobrigante I don't know much about these, but they are very interesting. Just for reference this is the 2nd brass inlaid anchor dha I've seen How long is the blade & handle? Thickness at the spine of the hilt?

18th October 2010, 03:50 AM	#8
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	A couple of other points while I'm thinking about it. First, remember for the majority of time under British rule, Burma was administered as a province of India; it was not until the 1930s that is was split off, and even then, most of the colonial troops were from India. Consequently, any "native" weapons were as likely to be Indian as Burmese. Second, historically the Burman cultural and political centers were in Upper Burma, for example Pagan and Mandalay. There was a good reason they weren't in Lower Burma. Lower Burma was a malarial swamp! It was only after an infusion of European capital and technology that the swamps were drained, allowing for the development of rice farming, fish farming and exploitation of the timber resources. This led to a major demographic, economic, and political shift in Burma from Upper Burma to Lower Burma. Consequently, any local boats on the water (including Pwo Karen) would likely be a result of colonial administration, not a carry over from earlier times. About the only exception to this would be among the Mon an in the Tenassarim Division, but I am not aware of any colonial forces raised specifically among the Mon, and Tenassarim(sp?) has always been something of a backwater.

18th October 2010, 08:33 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,031	Can we find any history of an organized Burmese Navy prior to 1940?

19th October 2010, 03:23 AM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	I know that British naval swords occasionally had anchor markings, but actually the closest pattern of anchor that this dha resembles is the m1801 French boarding cutlass, with its snug curved end and unfowled anchor. The m1833 pattern blade likewise used the anchor symbol in the exact location on the sword as this one. Interesting to note that even the blades of this dha and the French pattern look very alike...

19th October 2010, 06:43 PM	#16
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	thanks for the info m eley. Tracked down a picture of an anchor marked french boarding cutless dated to 1806 along the spine from the klingenthal sword factory. The anchor is obscured by rust / patina but what you can see does show someresemblance. Interesting the french seem to have been using this insignia in 1806 when the British only invented it in 1813 according to wikipedia? Although wikipedia should of course never been taken as gospel. My feeling is such a distinct style of anchor, with the circles and crescent shaped marks at the top along with the triangular arms, give me a good chance of dating this thing eventually, just need to hit the books and find a similar type. thanks to all for the help chaps, i should be getting sent some pics of a dha with the same insignia (possibly the one nathaniel is refering to) so will post them here if i get then.