Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th November 2016, 07:50 AM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default Yemenite jambiya khanjar

Hello,

I see in this forum that there is a lot of specialists about jambiyas;
what do you think of this jambiya:

I think it's pretty old ( 19th century ?) and coming from Yemen,

Silver mounts ? Rhino hilt ?
( sorry for the pictures, I tried to do my best but...)

Best wishes

Francesco
Attached Images
      
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 11:13 AM   #2
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default

Hello me, the hilt is made of classic horn, silver ok
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 11:15 AM   #3
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default

No, I think the hilt is made of plastic !!

Try to heat it a little and smell. ok thank youuu
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 11:42 AM   #4
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
No, I think the hilt is made of plastic !!

Try to heat it a little and smell. ok thank youuu


Hello francantolin,

this is nothing compared to my Mekka-Jambiya. During the cleaning of the blade I found out, that the blade is hollow! "What a strange sound!?!" OMG, the blade consists of only two thin sheets of metal. That was an enormous shock. Now it "protects" the darkest corner in my basement.

If you do this heat-test, please use a needle and on a hidden place on the hilt.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 01:28 PM   #5
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,531
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello francantolin,

this is nothing compared to my Mekka-Jambiya. During the cleaning of the blade I found out, that the blade is hollow! "What a strange sound!?!" OMG, the blade consists of only two thin sheets of metal. That was an enormous shock. Now it "protects" the darkest corner in my basement.

Roland


Hello Roland,

Hollow blade Jambiya?!?!?! Wow! Never even thought it is possible!


It would be very interesting to see some photos... if it isn't too painful.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 03:22 PM   #6
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Roland,

Hollow blade Jambiya?!?!?! Wow! Never even thought it is possible!


It would be very interesting to see some photos... if it isn't too painful.


Hi Marius,

at the weekend I'm going to make some pictures for you. Yes it's hard for me but after a few years my heartache is tolerable when I see it.

My new old Zanzibar Sword in mint condition and the wonderful and extremely sharp Sikin Pasangan with Pedang blade are a very powerful cure!


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 03:28 PM   #7
Saracen
Member
 
Saracen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hi Marius,

at the weekend I'm going to make some pictures for you....

Roland



Я тоже был бы очень благодарен за фото

I, too, would be very grateful for a photo
Saracen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 03:57 PM   #8
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,602
Default

On more recent jambiyas the blades are now made of 2 pieces of sheet metal welded together.

I also agree with the method of using a hot needle on a hidden part of the hilt to determine if it is plastic, which it does look like to me, but one can never be sure without testing.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2016, 04:33 PM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,107
Default

Not the area of my collecting but I doubt that it is a 19th century piece, sorry!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 06:36 AM   #10
Oriental-Arms
Member
 
Oriental-Arms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Haifa, Israel
Posts: 183
Default "Hollow" Jambiya blades

Attached. Second half of the 20th C.
Attached Images
  
Oriental-Arms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 06:41 AM   #11
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,531
Thumbs up

Thank you very much for the photos! Very interesting and educating!
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 07:28 AM   #12
Saracen
Member
 
Saracen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 22
Default

Спасибо за фото. В собранном виде виден ли шов на лезвии?

Thank you for the photo. The assembled if the seam on the blade is visible?
Saracen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 05:02 PM   #13
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Helllo Roland,

Hollow blade Jambiya?!?!?! Wow! Never even thought it is possible!


It would be very interesting to see some photos... if it isn't too painful.


Hello Marius,

here it is, the hollow blade. Made from very thin steel or iron. Both partes of the blade are soldered together; and interestingly enough, the result got some sharpness.
I think it is a kind of souvenir for Mekka-pilgrims and maybe 50 or so years old.


Roland
Attached Images
   
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 05:11 PM   #14
Bob A
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 292
Default

Roland, I feel your pain.

The level of detail that was evident on the sheath of your jambiyya would lead one to believe that a solid, forged blade would be the natural accompaniment.
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 08:25 PM   #15
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default

Sure !
It's crazy that people put such a poor blade with a nice quality scabbard and hilt.
For my ''horn'' hilt, I'll try the hot needle and tell you.

Kind regards
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2016, 09:55 PM   #16
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 744
Question How old can these sheet metal blades be?

A most interesting discussion!

In cataloging Lew's collection I have come across a number of jambiyas that I suspect have these blades that are made from two stamped pieces of sheet metal fused together.

Some have hilts with surprisingly fine silver work. Also, sometimes the wood and leather of a very well fitting sheath show some definite aging.

I have been very curious to learn when this sort of blade was introduced and where they have been made (versus hilted).
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 04:18 AM   #17
DaveA
Member
 
DaveA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.
Posts: 399
Default Tink! or Thunk! sound

One can learn a bit about the quality of a jambiya blade from Yemen by flicking a finger against the blade. A high pitched "tink!" is lesser quality. A deeper "thunk!" tells you it is better steel.

Or so I am told.

Best,

Dave A.
DaveA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 08:32 AM   #18
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob A
Roland, I feel your pain.

The level of detail that was evident on the sheath of your jambiyya would lead one to believe that a solid, forged blade would be the natural accompaniment.


Bob, exactly that was my thought! My very first impression was "The Mr. photographer from the internet is really brilliant."

But yesterday I finished the first stage of my Sikin Pasangan-polishing and it was a feeling like in heaven, when the structures came through, absolutely incredible.
I really look forward to show it here in the forum, a great masterpiece.

The jambiya is at least an interessting oddity.


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 10:31 AM   #19
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,531
Default

This is really astonishing! Wouldn't even have imagined that such a "marriage" is possible and definitely I would have never suspected anythig.

In fact, I believe Roland's example is a brilliant and very interesting piece in itself, exactly for this strange oddity.

So Roland, I don't think you should feel sorry about this, but keep this Jambiya as an example for the skill and creativity of the maker.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 12:25 PM   #20
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,010
Default

It looks as hilt/scabbard silver smiths proceeded with an attitude different than that of blade smiths. While the first kept their craft refined, the second departed for an easy job; assuming that hollow blades are not so hard to put up as real tempered solid ones. Also cultures were quite apart, the silver smiths being often Jews (Temani) and not allowed to forge blades ... so i heard. I know nothing of this subject but, i think hollow blades are definitely a declining resource; potentially newer than hilts and scabbards they are married with, when older age of the late is evident.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 01:50 PM   #21
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default

I tested my hilt with the hot burning needle: no particular smell, the needle can't penetrate deep inside.
No plastic but not sure it's horn too !!
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2016, 02:12 PM   #22
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 520
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
I tested my hilt with the hot burning needle: no particular smell, the needle can't penetrate deep inside.
No plastic but not sure it's horn too !!


One possibility could be Giraffe hoof.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10109


Roland
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 12:13 PM   #23
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

This is a cow horn hilt. The scabbard is new (nothing wrong with that as they fell apart usually scabbard first)..It is said that blades were imported from Germany and elsewhere although stories circulate that meteorite ore was used in locally made finer blades. Better quality blades are not joined like this, however, it is difficult to prove ..I have a dozen blades at any one time at the workshop but they are neither stamped nor are two the same. I think some came from Baluchistan and others from Persia as well as imports through trade from German sources and locally made items from wandering craftsmen such as the Zutoot in Oman before 1970.

Since this is a cow horn hilt it almost inevitably downgrades the dagger to tourist status...confirmed in the low grade blade and new scabbard of standard type and quality. Most Yemeni daggers were mounted on Rhino hilts...except cheaper items for the tourist market. The furniture on this weapon is low grade silver with a high other metals content typical after 1948 when the expert Jewish craftsmen left.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 05:41 PM   #24
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,994
Default

My guess is that Yemeni jambiyas ceased to be a weapon long ago and became just a customary part of male costume.

Thus, blade quality is no longer a necessary attribute. In any case, nobody pulls it out from the scabbard anyway.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 05:49 PM   #25
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,896
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
This is a cow horn hilt.

No it's wood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Most Yemeni daggers were mounted on Rhino hilts...except cheaper items for the tourist market.

Not true at all, for past and present.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 05:54 PM   #26
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 493
Default

Thank's everybody for all precious comments !!

Aee !! I thought the scabbard was made of with ''old'' silver mounts !

It was not too expensive so it's hopefully not too serious !!
That's life !
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 06:08 PM   #27
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,896
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Thank's everybody for all precious comments !!

Aee !! I thought the scabbard was made of with ''old'' silver mounts !

It was not too expensive so it's hopefully not too serious !!
That's life !

The Silver tarnishes quickly.
One good trick is to look at the leather on the scabbard.
This one is very recent.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2016, 10:26 PM   #28
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,929
Default

Hi Kubur,
Can you elaborate on the horn or materials used on Yemeni hilts on janbiyya? I am way foreign to study on these daggers, but it seems that in many cases of swords of various types mounted in Yemen with Ethiopian blades.....the idea was to bring in shotels from Ethiopia in order to dismantle them for the rhino from the hilts.
These swords were typically mounted in San'aa and the horn used to fashion janbiyya hilts.
As I recall from discussions quite some time ago, there was a great deal of attention to the quality and character of the horn in grips, which was key to status of the wearer.

I am also unclear on the same distribution of rhino horn into Omani areas and character of those...similar guidelines ?

Naturally I am concerned with genuine traditionally worn examples and not the 'souvenier' types.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2016, 04:59 AM   #29
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,896
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Kubur,
Can you elaborate on the horn or materials used on Yemeni hilts on janbiyya? .


Hi Jim,

Yes of course
You have different kind of material, horn (goat, cow, buffalo), rhino, girafe, ivory(walrus and elephant), amber, bakelite, alluminium, solid silver and wood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
in many cases of swords of various types mounted in Yemen with Ethiopian blades.....the idea was to bring in shotels from Ethiopia in order to dismantle them for the rhino from the hilts.


I wont be so sure about that. It's true for some of them but saying that all the rhino hilted jambiya were made from old shotels is not true. Yemeni and Omani imported raw material, rhino and other products from Africa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
there was a great deal of attention to the quality and character of the horn in grips, which was key to status of the wearer.
I am also unclear on the same distribution of rhino horn into Omani areas and character of those...similar guidelines ?


That's right. rhino jambiya and khanjar were very well considered (Elgood and other refs) and of course more expensive, so in a way they were a symbol of the status of the wearer. BUT I have seen (old photos and archives) poor bedouins with this kind of jambiya. Just to show off, look who I'm. The same is true now you can see some losers with very nice mobile phones!

Wooden hilted Yemeni jambiya (light brown wood) or Omani khanjar (dark brown wood) are common with old and recent models. With jambiya made for locals and some made for tourists.

Saying that cheap jambiya or non rhino hilted jambiya were made for tourist is not true and simplistic. It's important to built knowledge not only on the informations on the forum or on Wikipedia but to look at books and to see the real things, the objects!!! I guess that you will agree with me on the last one.


Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2016, 06:11 AM   #30
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

After 1948 all traditional silver items plunged in quality in Yemen. The real expert silver smiths almost all left the country...Since then vast numbers of Swords with Rhino Hilts were imported from Ethiopia as has been said ......These were stripped off and used on Jambia. Regarding the hilt at #1 it looks like cow horn but as with all photos it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference but shall we say the hilt is not Rhino. Being either wood ...usually the cheapest or cowhorn just as cheap marks the Jambia in the lower rung in quality. Because of the vast amount of Rhino floating about from the cheaply imported Ethiopian swords huge numbers of weapons were made with Rhino Hilts.

In Yemen there are a number of sources that provide Rhino Horn... Recycled Jambia hilts, Hilts from Ethiopian swords, imported Rhino horn. Tourist weapons usually have cheap hilts...That doesn't mean all tourists only buy cheap Jambias...

In Oman Rhino Hilts have a quality quotient all of their own though nowadays among the thousands of Khanjars I have seen I see a lot of high density plastic hilts thus saving the species somewhat...Old Rhino Hilts are recycled and fetch a premium. Occasionally I see nice wooden hilts of Sandalwood which are expensive...but a lot less than Rhino... The cheap stuff has cow or bullhorn and the very cheap items have plain wood...

Ariel they are weapons! It is traditional in Yemen for all the men to chew Ghat...after about midday you could even say that the entire male population is some what drunk on the stuff although I slightly exaggerate...but the net effect is that these weapons do get pulled in anger.. Strong laws in Oman usually prevent this with huge penalties applied simply because the blade is such a dangerous one.

I would urge people to look beyond books and get out there and handle the goods and speak to the dealers . A great place to learn is an Arabian Souk. I placed a few pictures of Souks of Oman...in Miscellaneous Forum...

Please See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15083 at#1 picture 3 is a typical display of Jambia where there are 50 or more on the wall...and hundreds more in the store...all tourist items. All very similar to the Jambia under scrutiny here...

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi : 1st December 2016 at 06:30 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:48 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.