Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 6th June 2022, 03:23 PM   #1
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default Elephant Goad, Ankus?

This is what I believe to be an Indian Elephant Goad, even though I guess it could be Indonesian; maybe the crocodile is a hint to its origin.
It looks like something may have broken off the front at some time?
Attached Images
        
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th June 2022, 07:57 PM   #2
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 382
Default

Makara?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 12:32 AM   #3
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

Interesting theory; I had to look the name "Makara," up to understand your reference.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 12:56 AM   #4
BBJW
Member
 
BBJW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 225
Default

Indian ones usually have a steel haft with a spike that is scrwed inside. Also elephant motif.---bbjw
BBJW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 09:00 AM   #5
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,734
Default

I think interested party is spot on. It must be some form of trishula used in religious festivals, shame it is broken.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 03:14 PM   #6
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

I'm not sure about the trishula reference; isn't that a 3 pronged trident?
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 03:52 PM   #7
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,734
Default

Some form of.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2022, 05:25 PM   #8
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 966
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drac2k View Post
I'm not sure about the trishula reference; isn't that a 3 pronged trident?
and the 3 tines pointing up?
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2022, 12:55 PM   #9
Mercenary
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
Default

Ankus for sure. I don't see anything Indian, but there are some Buddhist art features of Southeast Asia.
Mercenary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2022, 03:08 PM   #10
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 400
Default

Could it be a pangolin?
Regards
Richard
Richard G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2022, 03:56 PM   #11
Mercenary
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 421
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G View Post
Could it be a pangolin?
Regards
Richard
Anything, I think. This is a late item. All semantic connections are already lost.
Mercenary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2022, 06:27 PM   #12
Tim Simmons
Member
 
Tim Simmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,734
Default

Just does not look strong enough.
Tim Simmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th June 2022, 06:35 PM   #13
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons View Post
Just does not look strong enough.
Let's talk more boldly - it looks somewhat souvenir. Too flimsy for an item to be used to control an elephant.
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 04:18 AM   #14
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

It may be a souvenir item, probably 19th century, but flimsy it is not. It looks as if this has been repaired & reinforced afterward, indicating that this was a working item.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 01:20 PM   #15
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drac2k View Post
It may be a souvenir item, probably 19th century, but flimsy it is not. It looks as if this has been repaired & reinforced afterward, indicating that this was a working item.
Hello. Do you know the principle of using the ankus? The hook must be sharp so that the elephant feels through the thick skin the pricks that the mahout (the person who controls the elephant) inflicts.
Attached Images
 
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 02:25 PM   #16
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G View Post
Could it be a pangolin?
Regards
Richard
Pangolin....I always forget about them. Yes I believe it could be that.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 02:39 PM   #17
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

Hello back. Yes, I am aware of how the goad is used; if you look closely you can see that the tip has been broken(probably from misuse). As I am sure that you are also aware, often the Elephant and the rider have a bond, and a mere nudge or prod from the ankus is enough to direct the animal, much as spurs to a horse.
I also acknowledge that my goad(if that is what it is), may have been ceremonial and not for everyday use.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 02:46 PM   #18
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party View Post
Pangolin....I always forget about them. Yes I believe it could be that.
Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th June 2022, 02:49 PM   #19
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

The pangolin attribution is a good one, however, for me, the bulbous nose doesn't quite fit the animal's profile which has a more tapered nose. Let me clarify; the bulbous nose of my creature as opposed to that of the pangolin.

Last edited by drac2k; 14th June 2022 at 03:10 PM. Reason: to add information
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 12:11 AM   #20
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 430
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.
They're talking about the decorated curly bit on the goad in the shape of one of those.
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 06:30 AM   #21
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 1,042
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Guys, I am curious, I have never heard of a weapon/implement called a pangolin. As far as I have known this term applies to an animal known as a scaly anteater.

These are from sub Saharan Africa and while I believe their scaled hides are used as armor in certain native cultures, I have not heard of a weapon by this name.
Hello Jim.
One of the pangolin species lives in India - Manis crassicaudata. In India, armor was sometimes made from its horny scales.

But I have a question for everyone discussing the possible image of a pangolin on an Ankus. First, let's try to remember if the pangolin was a sacred animal in India? And are any of his artistic images or images in sculptural compositions known?
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 01:13 PM   #22
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt View Post
Hello Jim.
One of the pangolin species lives in India - Manis crassicaudata. In India, armor was sometimes made from its horny scales.

But I have a question for everyone discussing the possible image of a pangolin on an Ankus. First, let's try to remember if the pangolin was a sacred animal in India? And are any of his artistic images or images in sculptural compositions known?
Thank you Dima. I had no idea they were there as well, and it makes sense that their scales would make good armor.
I apparently misunderstood the earlier part of the discussion as pertains to the image depicted in the decoration rather than the entire weapon.

Well noted on the animal depicted, and it makes sense that there would be a deity type orientation or sacred significance in order to be featured in the motif. There has always been a bit of confusion it seems about the makara and yali as mythical creatures in the Indian pantheon, when and where they were used, and exactly what kind of creatures they were. I believe that they are in effect a combination of forms including crocodile etc.

I had not thought of the pangolin as sacred in a theological sense despite its hide and scales being important in making armor.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 01:47 PM   #23
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default .

Comp acts again:-(

Last edited by ariel; 15th June 2022 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Double
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 01:55 PM   #24
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default .

The form and the proportions of that gizmo are those of a garden variety ankus. Nothing else.
Any discussions of a pangolin , whether it was or is a sacred animal in India miss the point. Nobody rides a pangolin.
Similarly, the question whether it is big enough to inflict some pain to an elephant is mistaken: trained elephant responds to the slightest cues from the mahout and pain is carefully avoided, otherwise it will only provoke the creature. In Thailand we had elephant ride near Chiang Mai, I spoke with the mahout and he showed me how he guided the creature with very slight touches. The spear at the end is for killing the elephant if it goes berserk for some reason: a stab just below ( or more precisely, caudally) the skull transsects the spinal cord and causes immediate paralysis. My mahout knew it theoretically, but he never heard of such occurences.

The size of this ankus in question may ( not will !) provide some ideas about the origin. African elephant is the biggest , at ~10 feet tall at the shoulders, Asian ( Indian), ~9 feet tall, Borneo ~8 feet , and the smallest Sumatran one between 7-8 feet tall. There used to be pygmy elephants on smaller islans ( Malta, Crete etc.) and the most recent one on Flores island (<6 feet, and Flores humans <5 feet tall) but they are all extinct. This is a very well known to any educated biologist phenomenon of “island dwarfism” due to restricted habitat and limited food resources.

One can scour the internet and check sizes of ankuses in India and compare them with the current one : if the latter is obviously smaller , one can have a point for its Indonesian origin. I am not very optimistic about this approach: the size of the ankus likely depends more on the size of the mahout:-), but this ankus is so simple and village-made, that there are no ethnic cues as to its origin.
Just an ankus, recent or contemporary
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 07:21 PM   #25
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,173
Default

Just for my own edification what do consider recent vintage;5 years, 50 years,100 years old? Also, how did you determine that it is contemporary; have you seen other similar examples around?
The wear, repairs, and pitting would indicate some age to me. The workmanship as well; an example is that the legs are pinned on and not simply brazed, which would have been much easier.
Is it a stunning work of art, no, however it was probably produced by a small village blacksmith, who certainly had a degree of skill.
As an afterthought, it is 18" tall & 5 " at its widest.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th June 2022, 10:45 PM   #26
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

We all want our thingies to be really old and at the same time in a good shape.:-)
I do not know and, AFAIK, nobody can guess the age of this ankus.
They were used 500 years ago and continue to be used as we speak..
They are not involved in heavy jobs, just casual irritation of elephant’s hide, so they can stay in an almost pristine shape almost indefinitely. They are almost indestructible. In a hot and humid surrounding they may just get patinated.
That’s my limit of guessing.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2022, 08:57 AM   #27
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 382
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Well noted on the animal depicted, and it makes sense that there would be a deity type orientation or sacred significance in order to be featured in the motif. There has always been a bit of confusion it seems about the makara and yali as mythical creatures in the Indian pantheon, when and where they were used, and exactly what kind of creatures they were. I believe that they are in effect a combination of forms including crocodile etc.

I had not thought of the pangolin as sacred in a theological sense despite its hide and scales being important in making armor.
Jim this thread talks about Indonesian pangolin beliefs culminating at post #12.http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=pangolin
Whether this animal is a makara, a pangolin, or a crocodile is debatable and maybe it was left ambiguous by the artist.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.