Keris Bali Luk 21

Gustav · 8th September 2012, 02:57 PM

Dear All,

perhaps this is worth to leave few words on it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-19th...item43b313c678

The Pamor layers seem to be very thin, their thickness almost without changes.
Greneng and Jenggot seem to be rather small in my eyes. Could this be a regional style?

And was there some keris making in Bali between 1908 and WWII?

Gustav · 8th September 2012, 02:59 PM

More pictures.

Gustav · 8th September 2012, 03:02 PM

More.

Rick · 8th September 2012, 03:14 PM

A lovely keris !
I had been watching this one .
I'm very glad to see that a fellow member was able to acquire it .
Congratulations, Gustav .

Gustav · 8th September 2012, 03:18 PM

Dear Rick,

it isn't mine, I really wanted just to post it for dicussion, for it is an interesting piece worth of it

Rick · 8th September 2012, 03:36 PM

Ah, well .

David · 8th September 2012, 05:34 PM

I was also watching this with some interest, especially because of this beautiful blade. What i was wondering about is the hilt and when it might have been made. I have not seen many figurative copper hilts from Bali. It seems like an unusual metal to use with a keris of this quality. The "jewels" look much more like glass to me than the precious rubies the seller claimed them to be, but that's hard to tell from the photos. Of course, not at all unusual to see pastes used on high-end Bali keris as the Balinese saw nothing wrong with placing fake gems next to real if the effect was right. But i still have a feeling that this blade if more likely early 1900s and the hilt much later. Still a very attractive piece.

Jean · 8th September 2012, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ah, well .

I placed few bids on this piece but 2 guys fiercly competed for it and the bids went much too high IMO

in spite of the good blade (but with one corroded edge). The copper hilt and sheath look more recent and of common quality. No regrets....

Regards

Gustav · 8th September 2012, 07:19 PM

Actually I find this blade not so fantastic. Of course 21 luk are really scarce, it appears to have original polish and stain. Yet amount it reached seems to be to high to me.

I will explain a little my points. The pictures of the other keris are raided from Artzi's site, this blade has "only" 17 luk, yet the problems and solutions for the sorsoran are similar.

On Artzi's blade greneng and jenggot are typical Bali, on Ebay blade they are rather small and week, compare to the short and big sogokan. Wadidang seems to be disturbed.

I am perhaps a little bit paranoic towards gonjos on Bali keris, yet on both examples they actually don't reach the quality of the blade, even on Ebay keris.

Regarding the pamor layers, on Ebay blade they are very thin and the thickness seems to be very uniform to me - please compare to the layers on Artzi's blade. Could this be a hint on sheets (or something similar) of industrially made pamor material, which would place this keris later then around 1900?

The sheath is old, yet the fit to the blade, from what I can see from the pictures, is not of high quality.

Hilt seems to me nothing really special, I would say post-1908.

A. G. Maisey · 9th September 2012, 02:20 AM

I feel that both these keris --- the ebay and Artzi's one --- are Lombok origin. Certainly Bali style, but Lombok origin.

As to quality, Artzi's does seem marginally better quality, and marginally better condition, however, both keris are extremely desirable simply because of the extreme rareity of old Balinese keris of any quality, whether Bali origin or Lombok origin.

The "rubies" are pastes, probably clear glass with a red foil underlay. The give-away is the one on the right shoulder as the image faces you; look closely, it is flat topped with a little dimple:- glass. Hilt probably dates from 1920's - 1930's, both blades probably second half 19th century.

I feel that the buyer will probably return the ebay one to the seller when he finds that he has bought glass, not natural stones --- if they were natural stones the price paid would have been very, very low. Check out the value of natural cab rubies some time.

Actually natural red stones in Indonesian settings are a real trap. The dealers use the same word for rubies, red tourmalines and garnets:- mirah. You need some gemological training to tell the difference, particularly if you're buying on your feet in a badly lit market.

Jean · 9th September 2012, 09:36 AM

I communicated with the seller and told him my extreme doubts that the stones are rubies and he did not deny it but did not amend his description. I would not expect an experienced buyer to believe that a common quality copper hilt could be fitted with top quality precious stones!

satsujinken · 11th September 2012, 09:47 AM

Hi all

I am new here, and still trying to catch up with you guys on kris knowledge

about kris above, in my opinion, the hilt is definitely Bali, but the blade is very much younger, I think it is somewhere after 1945 or kamardikan

I have one with similar blade characteristics but with 9 luks, javanese hilt and warangka, dhapur Panimbal

this come straight from my photobucket album and I will move it to the server ASAP

David · 14th February 2013, 10:52 PM

Interesting that the guy who bought this in auction less than 6 months ago for over $2000 just re-sold on eBay it at a significant loss.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261165150888...84.m1423.l2649

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2013, 08:35 PM

And the original seller still has 100% positive feed-back in that well known auction site?

Peculiar.

David · 15th February 2013, 09:08 PM

Peculiar indeed. This guy re-sold this keris with the same exact photos from the original auction and basically passed on the same false info, mainly that the hilt had real rubies and other precious stones in it. I actually contacted him during this auction and mentioned that they were glass, and he didn't deny it. Even said he would change his description, but he, of course, never did. I guess he figured he would get away with passing the same deception on to the next guy, but it appears his plan failed.

Still a nice keris. If i wasn't already in debt in that department i probably would have bid. Certainly pastes or glass are not something to turn one's nose up at in the world of Bali keris. I find the hilt handsome regardless of the less than precious materials (though copper seems to be becoming a precious metal these days). And the 21 luk blade seems a bid of a rarity.

asomotif · 15th February 2013, 10:12 PM

I was considering a bid on the most recent auction as well.
But also short of funds, so did not bid in the end.
Stupid, as it went for a real bargain price now imho.

As for the rubies, for some reason people start yelling "semi precious stones" whenever they see a bali hilt.
And it is just as nice a hilt if you truthfully say it is glass.

David · 15th February 2013, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

As for the rubies, for some reason people start yelling "semi precious stones" whenever they see a bali hilt.
And it is just as nice a hilt if you truthfully say it is glass.

Agreed, though obviously it would have a bit more overall material value if indeed these were actual rubies. But anyone who has studied Balinese keris at all will have no doubt encountered pastes and glass "stone" even in high end hilts that use precious metals and knows that the material value isn't as important as the overall effect in the end.
I also agree that this time round it was a bit of a bargain that i wish i had been able to bid on.

8th September 2012, 02:57 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Keris Bali Luk 21 Dear All, perhaps this is worth to leave few words on it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-19th...item43b313c678 The Pamor layers seem to be very thin, their thickness almost without changes. Greneng and Jenggot seem to be rather small in my eyes. Could this be a regional style? And was there some keris making in Bali between 1908 and WWII? Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 8th September 2012 at 03:15 PM.

8th September 2012, 02:59 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	More pictures. Attached Images

8th September 2012, 03:02 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	More. Attached Images

8th September 2012, 07:19 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Actually I find this blade not so fantastic. Of course 21 luk are really scarce, it appears to have original polish and stain. Yet amount it reached seems to be to high to me. I will explain a little my points. The pictures of the other keris are raided from Artzi's site, this blade has "only" 17 luk, yet the problems and solutions for the sorsoran are similar. On Artzi's blade greneng and jenggot are typical Bali, on Ebay blade they are rather small and week, compare to the short and big sogokan. Wadidang seems to be disturbed. I am perhaps a little bit paranoic towards gonjos on Bali keris, yet on both examples they actually don't reach the quality of the blade, even on Ebay keris. Regarding the pamor layers, on Ebay blade they are very thin and the thickness seems to be very uniform to me - please compare to the layers on Artzi's blade. Could this be a hint on sheets (or something similar) of industrially made pamor material, which would place this keris later then around 1900? The sheath is old, yet the fit to the blade, from what I can see from the pictures, is not of high quality. Hilt seems to me nothing really special, I would say post-1908. Attached Images

8th September 2012, 03:14 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	A lovely keris ! I had been watching this one . I'm very glad to see that a fellow member was able to acquire it . Congratulations, Gustav .

8th September 2012, 03:18 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Dear Rick, it isn't mine, I really wanted just to post it for dicussion, for it is an interesting piece worth of it

8th September 2012, 03:36 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Ah, well .

8th September 2012, 05:34 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	I was also watching this with some interest, especially because of this beautiful blade. What i was wondering about is the hilt and when it might have been made. I have not seen many figurative copper hilts from Bali. It seems like an unusual metal to use with a keris of this quality. The "jewels" look much more like glass to me than the precious rubies the seller claimed them to be, but that's hard to tell from the photos. Of course, not at all unusual to see pastes used on high-end Bali keris as the Balinese saw nothing wrong with placing fake gems next to real if the effect was right. But i still have a feeling that this blade if more likely early 1900s and the hilt much later. Still a very attractive piece.

9th September 2012, 02:20 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I feel that both these keris --- the ebay and Artzi's one --- are Lombok origin. Certainly Bali style, but Lombok origin. As to quality, Artzi's does seem marginally better quality, and marginally better condition, however, both keris are extremely desirable simply because of the extreme rareity of old Balinese keris of any quality, whether Bali origin or Lombok origin. The "rubies" are pastes, probably clear glass with a red foil underlay. The give-away is the one on the right shoulder as the image faces you; look closely, it is flat topped with a little dimple:- glass. Hilt probably dates from 1920's - 1930's, both blades probably second half 19th century. I feel that the buyer will probably return the ebay one to the seller when he finds that he has bought glass, not natural stones --- if they were natural stones the price paid would have been very, very low. Check out the value of natural cab rubies some time. Actually natural red stones in Indonesian settings are a real trap. The dealers use the same word for rubies, red tourmalines and garnets:- mirah. You need some gemological training to tell the difference, particularly if you're buying on your feet in a badly lit market.

9th September 2012, 09:36 AM	#11
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I communicated with the seller and told him my extreme doubts that the stones are rubies and he did not deny it but did not amend his description. I would not expect an experienced buyer to believe that a common quality copper hilt could be fitted with top quality precious stones!

11th September 2012, 09:47 AM	#12
satsujinken Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Surabaya - Indonesia Posts: 199	Hi all I am new here, and still trying to catch up with you guys on kris knowledge about kris above, in my opinion, the hilt is definitely Bali, but the blade is very much younger, I think it is somewhere after 1945 or kamardikan I have one with similar blade characteristics but with 9 luks, javanese hilt and warangka, dhapur Panimbal this come straight from my photobucket album and I will move it to the server ASAP

14th February 2013, 10:52 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Interesting that the guy who bought this in auction less than 6 months ago for over $2000 just re-sold on eBay it at a significant loss. http://www.ebay.com/itm/261165150888...84.m1423.l2649

15th February 2013, 08:35 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	And the original seller still has 100% positive feed-back in that well known auction site? Peculiar.

15th February 2013, 09:08 PM	#15
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	Peculiar indeed. This guy re-sold this keris with the same exact photos from the original auction and basically passed on the same false info, mainly that the hilt had real rubies and other precious stones in it. I actually contacted him during this auction and mentioned that they were glass, and he didn't deny it. Even said he would change his description, but he, of course, never did. I guess he figured he would get away with passing the same deception on to the next guy, but it appears his plan failed. Still a nice keris. If i wasn't already in debt in that department i probably would have bid. Certainly pastes or glass are not something to turn one's nose up at in the world of Bali keris. I find the hilt handsome regardless of the less than precious materials (though copper seems to be becoming a precious metal these days). And the 21 luk blade seems a bid of a rarity.

15th February 2013, 10:12 PM	#16
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	I was considering a bid on the most recent auction as well. But also short of funds, so did not bid in the end. Stupid, as it went for a real bargain price now imho. As for the rubies, for some reason people start yelling "semi precious stones" whenever they see a bali hilt. And it is just as nice a hilt if you truthfully say it is glass.