Can early sword blades be remanufactured over time?

Matt Branch · 15th October 2006, 04:17 PM

Hello to all.
I have a sword that I am having a great deal of trouble Identifing.
It has been suggested that it could be a 1600's or 1700's spanish blade that was later decorated in a mexican theme.
The shape of the blade and the fullers are diffrent than any sword I have found.
I also have not found a pommel that matches mine.
Could this be 1600's-1700"s blade?
Does any one have a sword with similar fullers?
Could the decorations be put on long after the blade was made?
The eagle just above the fullers is a close match to the eagle on the Disturnell treaty map of 1865, it is the only "Mexican" theme eagle I have found whose wing tips point up, all others point down.
I would appreciate any info.
Thanks
Matt

ariel · 16th October 2006, 04:05 AM

I guess it would be pretty easy to acid etch the eagle on the blade and the general construction does in fact remind of old rapiers.
No matter what the blade experts say, the last picture is visually very impressive!

Rivkin · 16th October 2006, 06:16 AM

You should ask McDougall about american/mexican swords, to me it looks like something similar not so much to earlier rapiers but to spanish heavy cavalry "backblades", 1768/1803 patterns with what I guess a mexican eagle (?).

Lee · 17th October 2006, 02:24 PM

Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) shows some blades very similar in form to yours and dates them to the early 18th century; remarking this blade form is very common in the Spanish colonies.

I suspect the form may have continued to be made after that, probably well into the 19th century. European 'trade' blades with the three narrow, shaller fullers are also seen in takoubas, kaskaras and even Scottish basket hilts. I agree that the eagle on your example surely suggests Mexico.

The engraving on the blade and the form of the hilt would probably be your best clue to the date of assembly. Looking closely at the grain of the metal and presence or absence of grossly obvious inclusions might help you decide if the blade is earlier or later. Look also at the mounting of the blade into the handle to assess whether it was likely assembled de novo or incorporated an earlier blade.

Matt Branch · 17th October 2006, 11:32 PM

Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) shows some blades very similar in form to yours and dates them to the early 18th century; remarking this blade form is very common in the Spanish colonies.

Lee, thanks, is there a way to post those photos? I can't find them on line.

I suspect the form may have continued to be made after that, probably well into the 19th century. European 'trade' blades with the three narrow, shaller fullers are also seen in takoubas, kaskaras and even Scottish basket hilts. I agree that the eagle on your example surely suggests Mexico.

Lee, my ancestors (where the sword came from) came over in 1831 from Cornwall England, the family legend was that the sword came with him but I think that is to early for this blade.

The engraving on the blade and the form of the hilt would probably be your best clue to the date of assembly. Looking closely at the grain of the metal and presence or absence of grossly obvious inclusions might help you decide if the blade is earlier or later. Look also at the mounting of the blade into the handle to assess whether it was likely assembled de novo or incorporated an earlier blade.

Lee there is a fold down guard and the blade is not tight in the hilt, I don't know how to take it apart. re the blade I have been cleaning it for some time you could not see the pattern at all before I started
Thanks
Matt

Matt Branch · 17th October 2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess it would be pretty easy to acid etch the eagle on the blade and the general construction does in fact remind of old rapiers.
No matter what the blade experts say, the last picture is visually very impressive!

Thanks Ariel

Matt Branch · 17th October 2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

You should ask McDougall about american/mexican swords, to me it looks like something similar not so much to earlier rapiers but to spanish heavy cavalry "backblades", 1768/1803 patterns with what I guess a mexican eagle (?).

Thanks Rivkin, I'm kind of new to this, ask McDougall?
Thanks
Matt

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2006, 08:52 PM

Rivkin, thanks very much for the kind reference

very much appreciated.

This sabre is apparantly one of the many variations of branched guard examples favored by Mexican officers after the independance from Spain of Mexico in 1821. There were considerable stockpiles of these familiar three fuller dragoon blades (many disagree with that term, but it is often used as seen in the Chamberlain reference) in Mexico for long into the 19th c.
These are considered of the M1769 Spanish troopers pattern (Chamberlain, op.cit.).
The eagle does of course appear to be a variation of the Mexican national emblem, and there were numerous variations, unclear as to the progression of detail such as the wing tips. It should be noted that these sabres were used very late into the 19th century, and often favored by the ersatz police forces known as 'rurales' during the Diaz regime.
The swords of Mexico and early colonial New Spain are a personal favorite, and represent a colorful heritage that is often very much missing in many, if not most, studies of antique edged weapons.
Very nice example !!!

All best regards,
Jim

Matt Branch · 19th October 2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Rivkin, thanks very much for the kind reference

very much appreciated.

This sabre is apparantly one of the many variations of branched guard examples favored by Mexican officers after the independance from Spain of Mexico in 1821. There were considerable stockpiles of these familiar three fuller dragoon blades (many disagree with that term, but it is often used as seen in the Chamberlain reference) in Mexico for long into the 19th c.
These are considered of the M1769 Spanish troopers pattern (Chamberlain, op.cit.).
The eagle does of course appear to be a variation of the Mexican national emblem, and there were numerous variations, unclear as to the progression of detail such as the wing tips. It should be noted that these sabres were used very late into the 19th century, and often favored by the ersatz police forces known as 'rurales' during the Diaz regime.
The swords of Mexico and early colonial New Spain are a personal favorite, and represent a colorful heritage that is often very much missing in many, if not most, studies of antique edged weapons.
Very nice example !!!

All best regards,
Jim

Thanks so much Jim, would you know where I could find some photos or specs on that sword? Do you know if this would be a solingen blade?
I've been looking for an expert on Mexican Swords are you one or do you know one?
Thanks again!
Matt

Lew · 19th October 2006, 07:35 PM

Matt

Your sword blade is German it is a dead ringer for the trade blades that I have seen on kaskaras plus didn't the Austrians control or influence Mexico's government for many years. Below is a portrait of Maximilian.

Matt Branch · 19th October 2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Matt

Your sword blade is German it is a dead ringer for the trade blades that I have seen on kaskaras plus didn't the Austrians control or influence Mexico's government for many years. Below is a portrait of Maximilian.

Hi Louieblades,
Yes I think you are right, I have had some comments about Maximilian on my post on the SFI spanish language forum.
Would you have any photos of similar blades?
Thanks
Matt
(I don't know how to link to that post on SFI)

Lew · 20th October 2006, 05:39 AM

Matt

I was able to resize my pic of this sword. The blade was cut down to about 23".

Lew

Matt Branch · 20th October 2006, 04:57 PM

Thanks Lew.
Nice sword, it does resemble mine. I'm looking for more on Solingen Know anything?

Thanks
Matt

15th October 2006, 04:17 PM	#1
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Can early sword blades be remanufactured over time? Hello to all. I have a sword that I am having a great deal of trouble Identifing. It has been suggested that it could be a 1600's or 1700's spanish blade that was later decorated in a mexican theme. The shape of the blade and the fullers are diffrent than any sword I have found. I also have not found a pommel that matches mine. Could this be 1600's-1700"s blade? Does any one have a sword with similar fullers? Could the decorations be put on long after the blade was made? The eagle just above the fullers is a close match to the eagle on the Disturnell treaty map of 1865, it is the only "Mexican" theme eagle I have found whose wing tips point up, all others point down. I would appreciate any info. Thanks Matt Attached Images

19th October 2006, 07:35 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Matt Your sword blade is German it is a dead ringer for the trade blades that I have seen on kaskaras plus didn't the Austrians control or influence Mexico's government for many years. Below is a portrait of Maximilian. Attached Images

20th October 2006, 05:39 AM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Matt I was able to resize my pic of this sword. The blade was cut down to about 23". Lew Attached Images

20th October 2006, 04:57 PM	#13
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Nice Sword Thanks Lew. Nice sword, it does resemble mine. I'm looking for more on Solingen Know anything? Thanks Matt

16th October 2006, 04:05 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess it would be pretty easy to acid etch the eagle on the blade and the general construction does in fact remind of old rapiers. No matter what the blade experts say, the last picture is visually very impressive!

16th October 2006, 06:16 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	You should ask McDougall about american/mexican swords, to me it looks like something similar not so much to earlier rapiers but to spanish heavy cavalry "backblades", 1768/1803 patterns with what I guess a mexican eagle (?).

17th October 2006, 02:24 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 889	Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) shows some blades very similar in form to yours and dates them to the early 18th century; remarking this blade form is very common in the Spanish colonies. I suspect the form may have continued to be made after that, probably well into the 19th century. European 'trade' blades with the three narrow, shaller fullers are also seen in takoubas, kaskaras and even Scottish basket hilts. I agree that the eagle on your example surely suggests Mexico. The engraving on the blade and the form of the hilt would probably be your best clue to the date of assembly. Looking closely at the grain of the metal and presence or absence of grossly obvious inclusions might help you decide if the blade is earlier or later. Look also at the mounting of the blade into the handle to assess whether it was likely assembled de novo or incorporated an earlier blade.

17th October 2006, 11:32 PM	#5
Matt Branch Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 36	Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) shows some blades very similar in form to yours and dates them to the early 18th century; remarking this blade form is very common in the Spanish colonies. Lee, thanks, is there a way to post those photos? I can't find them on line. I suspect the form may have continued to be made after that, probably well into the 19th century. European 'trade' blades with the three narrow, shaller fullers are also seen in takoubas, kaskaras and even Scottish basket hilts. I agree that the eagle on your example surely suggests Mexico. Lee, my ancestors (where the sword came from) came over in 1831 from Cornwall England, the family legend was that the sword came with him but I think that is to early for this blade. The engraving on the blade and the form of the hilt would probably be your best clue to the date of assembly. Looking closely at the grain of the metal and presence or absence of grossly obvious inclusions might help you decide if the blade is earlier or later. Look also at the mounting of the blade into the handle to assess whether it was likely assembled de novo or incorporated an earlier blade. Lee there is a fold down guard and the blade is not tight in the hilt, I don't know how to take it apart. re the blade I have been cleaning it for some time you could not see the pattern at all before I started Thanks Matt

18th October 2006, 08:52 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	Rivkin, thanks very much for the kind reference very much appreciated. This sabre is apparantly one of the many variations of branched guard examples favored by Mexican officers after the independance from Spain of Mexico in 1821. There were considerable stockpiles of these familiar three fuller dragoon blades (many disagree with that term, but it is often used as seen in the Chamberlain reference) in Mexico for long into the 19th c. These are considered of the M1769 Spanish troopers pattern (Chamberlain, op.cit.). The eagle does of course appear to be a variation of the Mexican national emblem, and there were numerous variations, unclear as to the progression of detail such as the wing tips. It should be noted that these sabres were used very late into the 19th century, and often favored by the ersatz police forces known as 'rurales' during the Diaz regime. The swords of Mexico and early colonial New Spain are a personal favorite, and represent a colorful heritage that is often very much missing in many, if not most, studies of antique edged weapons. Very nice example !!! All best regards, Jim