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Old 16th June 2018, 12:45 PM   #1
ridho pulungan
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Default Which of these are truly old keris?

Hi Forum.
I really need your advice and comment. Which one of those keris with gandik Naga ornament is fake(not old keris)?
Thank you all
Regards.
Ridho Pulungan
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Old 16th June 2018, 02:52 PM   #2
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As Rick suggested in another thread, we need better photgraphs.
Also, i would not use the word "fake" to describe newer keris unless they are being presented to you as antiques. Even then the intention of the maker probably was not to create a "fake".
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Old 16th June 2018, 03:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
As Rick suggested in another thread, we need better photgraphs.
Also, i would not use the word "fake" to describe newer keris unless they are being presented to you as antiques. Even then the intention of the maker probably was not to create a "fake".


Owh ya..sorry for the picture David. I'll soon post more clear picture. Amd forgive me to use a word 'fake'. Is that any suggestion how to edit the titlle and my post?.if its a way to edit,i'll change it. Thank you so much for your attention.
Regards.
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Old 16th June 2018, 06:03 PM   #4
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Instead of fake, may I suggest that you make your question more concrete, e.g. which of these keris are kemardikan? Or which of these keris are older than the 19th century?
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Old 16th June 2018, 09:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ridho pulungan
Owh ya..sorry for the picture David. I'll soon post more clear picture. Amd forgive me to use a word 'fake'. Is that any suggestion how to edit the titlle and my post?.if its a way to edit,i'll change it. Thank you so much for your attention.
Regards.

I changed the title for you Ridho.
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Old 17th June 2018, 10:50 AM   #6
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Default Thank you so much David

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I changed the title for you Ridho.


Thank you so much for your help David.
I make a litlle change to the picture. I know its not perfect enough,but i hope the new pict can give Rick more clear about the keris. I really want to take another picture with new angle and lighting soon.
Thank you for your kind.
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Old 17th June 2018, 09:54 PM   #7
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Ridho, I'm not brave enough to jump in and declare that something in a picture on a screen is not old. By "old", I'm thinking in terms of pre-WWII.

But I will say this:- I have not seen, nor handled any keris that I knew to pre-date WWII that looked anything like any of these keris.

I began really looking at keris about 65 years ago, during that period I have handled literally thousands of keris, including many with genuine provenance that went back in some cases to pre-1700. No keris that I knew to pre-date WWII looked anything at all like any of these keris.
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Old 17th June 2018, 10:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Ridho, I'm not brave enough to jump in and declare that something in a picture on a screen is not old. By "old", I'm thinking in terms of pre-WWII.
But I will say this:- I have not seen, nor handled any keris that I knew to pre-date WWII that looked anything like any of these keris.
I began really looking at keris about 65 years ago, during that period I have handled literally thousands of keris, including many with genuine provenance that went back in some cases to pre-1700. No keris that I knew to pre-date WWII looked anything at all like any of these keris.


Thank you so much Alan.
But can i ask you more further Alan?
Are the ricikan or shape or maybe the ornament or curve of blade from these keris follow on tangguh/period that you know? i can sure you that in magnifician lens,the layer of all these keris are made from many layer of forged.
Base on your experties. Can you judged the date of some keris with the form of forging layer on its blade? Are that layer give any clue that the keris are come from certain tangguh?
I'm really curios about how to determine the tangguh not only from the shape of ricikan,but maybe from the path of forging layer of its blade.
Many thank Alan.
Best regards.
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Old 18th June 2018, 04:22 AM   #9
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I think using a neutral gray and not a black background will make things clearer; also photos taken in outside light will much improve things.
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Old 18th June 2018, 05:42 AM   #10
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Ridho, I do appreciate that you are trying to come to terms with a way in which to estimate blade age, but to the best of my knowledge there is no simple way or quick way or short way of doing this. It is not a matter of just looking what we can see in a picture, nor is it a matter of looking at what we can see with the blade in hand. I have handled more than a few pre-1700 blades in European museum collections, and many of those blades look as if they came off the work bench yesterday, mix them in with some kemardikan blades made in conventional forms and it would be more than a little bit difficult to say which are old and which are new.

There is no formula you can use.

According to traditional belief, some blades will have a greater or lesser number of layers that can be counted on either side of the core, however, how useful is this as an indicator when we know that we are looking at blades with varying levels or erosion?
About the only useful indicator that concerns layering of material in a blade, that I know is that Pajajaran blades often have the pamor layer very slightly separated from the layer beneath it, this is easy to see under magnification, but sometimes difficult to see without magnification.
There is a lot of belief that concerns iron types, supposed differences in forging , and differences in construction, in my opinion, most of this belief is simply that:- belief.
Learn the basics first, then learn how to actually make a blade, I do not mean theory from a book, I mean with a hammer in your hand, and then using chisels and other tools that you have made yourself. When you have done this, and you have many years of experience, you may have some chance of being able to estimate how old a blade is, and how to classify it.

Imagined differences in forge techniques will not help you at all.

When we build up layers of iron, or layers of iron and nickel, and then we polish that layered material it can be very difficult sometimes to see the layers, but if we then cause erosion of that layered surface we can see the layers easily, this is true of both newly forged material and old material.

If we begin the layering process with thick material we get thick layers, if with thin material, thin layers.

Within the tangguh system there are some indicators that do address number and thickness of material layers, but these indicators can only be used in combination with all the other indicators, never as stand alone indicators. As already mentioned, tangguh equates to classification, not necessarily age.
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Old 18th June 2018, 05:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I think using a neutral gray and not a black background will make things clearer; also photos taken in outside light will much improve things.


Thank you Rick..i'll soon post another picture of these keris. I'm so happy to join this informative
forum.
Please kindly comment on my posts. Your comments will be very helpful.
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Old 18th June 2018, 05:55 AM   #12
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Yes Rick, I agree 100%.

Neutral grey back cloth, natural light in open shade, light from the south in the Southern Hemisphere, from the north in the Northern Hemisphere, bounce boards to throw light as compensation for the shade, avoid big apertures, maybe 3 or 4 F stops smaller than biggest aperture, tripod and time release or remote release if possible.

Alternatively, full auto with the flash deactivated and full natural light, avoid direct sunlight. With a point and shoot this will normally give something usable.

As a minimum, in processing:- resize for net use, remove cyan,sharpen (unsharp mask)
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Old 18th June 2018, 11:40 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Ridho, I do appreciate that you are trying to come to terms with a way in which to estimate blade age, but to the best of my knowledge there is no simple way or quick way or short way of doing this. It is not a matter of just looking what we can see in a picture, nor is it a matter of looking at what we can see with the blade in hand. I have handled more than a few pre-1700 blades in European museum collections, and many of those blades look as if they came off the work bench yesterday, mix them in with some kemardikan blades made in conventional forms and it would be more than a little bit difficult to say which are old and which are new.

There is no formula you can use.

According to traditional belief, some blades will have a greater or lesser number of layers that can be counted on either side of the core, however, how useful is this as an indicator when we know that we are looking at blades with varying levels or erosion?
About the only useful indicator that concerns layering of material in a blade, that I know is that Pajajaran blades often have the pamor layer very slightly separated from the layer beneath it, this is easy to see under magnification, but sometimes difficult to see without magnification.
There is a lot of belief that concerns iron types, supposed differences in forging , and differences in construction, in my opinion, most of this belief is simply that:- belief.
Learn the basics first, then learn how to actually make a blade, I do not mean theory from a book, I mean with a hammer in your hand, and then using chisels and other tools that you have made yourself. When you have done this, and you have many years of experience, you may have some chance of being able to estimate how old a blade is, and how to classify it.

Imagined differences in forge techniques will not help you at all.

When we build up layers of iron, or layers of iron and nickel, and then we polish that layered material it can be very difficult sometimes to see the layers, but if we then cause erosion of that layered surface we can see the layers easily, this is true of both newly forged material and old material.

If we begin the layering process with thick material we get thick layers, if with thin material, thin layers.

Within the tangguh system there are some indicators that do address number and thickness of material layers, but these indicators can only be used in combination with all the other indicators, never as stand alone indicators. As already mentioned, tangguh equates to classification, not necessarily age.


Alan,what you've wrote in this thread makes me suddenly feel very sad. After all these time i try find an Indonesian Mpu after mpu Djeno alm. (I meet him onces with my father when i'm at colledge) that really understand aboutt all things that you've described. It's a long way and i'm not sure i can deeply understanding keris like you're. Keris is the only one that Indonesia have as its legacy to the history of humanity. Not batik, nor Tempe or Toffu. But No Indonesian ever said like you do.huffft. Is the class to learn about keris already dismiss in my time now?how about my son,my grandson?hiks..so sad.
Any way Alan. Thank you so much for give me a path to a journey that seems to imposible to complish. I hope you've educate someone/many Indonesian to become your 'prenjak' in future time.
Thank you David, Rick,Kai, Bjorn,Jean and all the member in this forum for being so kind and nice to me.
I think this thread already answer my question.
Best warm regards to you all.
Ridho Pulungan.
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Old 18th June 2018, 10:51 PM   #14
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Ridho, you sound a little disappointed to discover that there is no easy way to learn about the keris.

Why should this surprise you?

There is no short nor easy way to learn about anything, especially anything that is worth having knowledge of.

How long does it take for a child to speak, read and write, and these are things that he is surrounded with every day as he grows. How long to learn to play a musical instrument?

I could go on and on in this vein, but it does not matter what it is that we set out to learn, one thing is certain:- we never stop learning.

Another thing is certain:- knowledge and understanding do not come as a result of divine intervention ---well, not for most people --- knowledge and understanding only come as a result of both consistent work and long experience.

You wish to gain knowledge of the keris? You are ideally placed to be able to do this. Think of how difficult it is for somebody who lives outside of Indonesia , especially outside of Jawa, to try to come to an understanding of the linguistic, cultural and social foundations of the keris belief systems, and it is essential to understand these foundations before the keris belief systems can be understood, and unless the keris belief systems are understood, it is not possible to understand the keris.

Much of what anybody outside Jawa must learn before he can even begin to think about the keris, you already live with every day. The keris is a part of your daily life, it is buried deep in your sub-conscious and it never leaves you. Almost nobody outside Jawa has this advantage.

Yet this morning I read your "I'm very sad" post.

Ridho, you sound like a man who was born with wealth but who is disappointed because what he wants to buy will not come to him, he needs to go to the market and look for it. You have written as if all hope is lost, everything is already finished. You are wrong. Hopefully you will now realise what is needed in order to gain the understanding you seek. This is your beginning, not the end of your search.

Yes, in my previous post I did outline one way in which to gain some understanding of the keris, but that is only one road to your destination, there are others.

If you are not already a member of a keris discussion/study group in Indonesia, you should join one. You need to know the keris belief systems, which is to say that you need to understand how the keris is woven into folk belief, before you can integrate that folk belief with other knowledge bases. Join a study group, it is certain that much of what you will hear will be quite a bit different to what you have read from me, but you cannot progress without a local understanding.

You can stop at the level of keris study group knowledge if you wish. These groups are basically social groups and give the opportunity for like minded individuals to indulge in social contact. Membership of such a group can be very comfortable.

Alternatively you can use the understanding you gain from the study group and then begin a semi academic study of Javanese history, culture, society. The technology and technique of actual keris manufacture is something that must not be neglected, and once again, you live much closer to the people who still make keris, than does somebody from outside your society, and you speak the same language as the people who hold the knowledge that you want.

As for Indonesians not speaking as I do, well, let us not confuse Indonesians with Javanese. I am certain that many Indonesians do not think as I do, but amongst the people I know and have known in Central Jawa there would be a degree of solid agreement with my ideas, as well as a degree of equally solid disagreement. In fact, some of my ideas are rather unique, and would undoubtedly draw initial disagreement, however that disagreement can be set aside by simple, objective investigation.

To summarise.
If you wish to understand the Javanese keris you first must learn the Javanese keris belief systems, then you must follow a structured study plan that covers history, sociology, anthropology, art, religion, forge technology and techniques. As you learn you will find that it is not all that difficult to integrate the separate areas of knowledge into a foundation that permits a better understanding of your objective. If your objective is an understanding of the keris, your learning will never cease.
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Old 19th June 2018, 02:56 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Ridho, you sound a little disappointed to discover that there is no easy way to learn about the keris.

Why should this surprise you?

There is no short nor easy way to learn about anything, especially anything that is worth having knowledge of.

How long does it take for a child to speak, read and write, and these are things that he is surrounded with every day as he grows. How long to learn to play a musical instrument?

I could go on and on in this vein, but it does not matter what it is that we set out to learn, one thing is certain:- we never stop learning.

Another thing is certain:- knowledge and understanding do not come as a result of divine intervention ---well, not for most people --- knowledge and understanding only come as a result of both consistent work and long experience.

You wish to gain knowledge of the keris? You are ideally placed to be able to do this. Think of how difficult it is for somebody who lives outside of Indonesia , especially outside of Jawa, to try to come to an understanding of the linguistic, cultural and social foundations of the keris belief systems, and it is essential to understand these foundations before the keris belief systems can be understood, and unless the keris belief systems are understood, it is not possible to understand the keris.

Much of what anybody outside Jawa must learn before he can even begin to think about the keris, you already live with every day. The keris is a part of your daily life, it is buried deep in your sub-conscious and it never leaves you. Almost nobody outside Jawa has this advantage.

Yet this morning I read your "I'm very sad" post.

Ridho, you sound like a man who was born with wealth but who is disappointed because what he wants to buy will not come to him, he needs to go to the market and look for it. You have written as if all hope is lost, everything is already finished. You are wrong. Hopefully you will now realise what is needed in order to gain the understanding you seek. This is your beginning, not the end of your search.

Yes, in my previous post I did outline one way in which to gain some understanding of the keris, but that is only one road to your destination, there are others.

If you are not already a member of a keris discussion/study group in Indonesia, you should join one. You need to know the keris belief systems, which is to say that you need to understand how the keris is woven into folk belief, before you can integrate that folk belief with other knowledge bases. Join a study group, it is certain that much of what you will hear will be quite a bit different to what you have read from me, but you cannot progress without a local understanding.

You can stop at the level of keris study group knowledge if you wish. These groups are basically social groups and give the opportunity for like minded individuals to indulge in social contact. Membership of such a group can be very comfortable.

Alternatively you can use the understanding you gain from the study group and then begin a semi academic study of Javanese history, culture, society. The technology and technique of actual keris manufacture is something that must not be neglected, and once again, you live much closer to the people who still make keris, than does somebody from outside your society, and you speak the same language as the people who hold the knowledge that you want.

As for Indonesians not speaking as I do, well, let us not confuse Indonesians with Javanese. I am certain that many Indonesians do not think as I do, but amongst the people I know and have known in Central Jawa there would be a degree of solid agreement with my ideas, as well as a degree of equally solid disagreement. In fact, some of my ideas are rather unique, and would undoubtedly draw initial disagreement, however that disagreement can be set aside by simple, objective investigation.

To summarise.
If you wish to understand the Javanese keris you first must learn the Javanese keris belief systems, then you must follow a structured study plan that covers history, sociology, anthropology, art, religion, forge technology and techniques. As you learn you will find that it is not all that difficult to integrate the separate areas of knowledge into a foundation that permits a better understanding of your objective. If your objective is an understanding of the keris, your learning will never cease.



I would also like to add in my 2 cents of worth. Being a Singaporean Chinese who knows nothing about Indonesia language etc, I found it very difficult to study keris histories and especially the keris system of classification etc. which I think it is more complicated than Nihonto.

I start learning and collecting keris last year and never stop. It is an enjoyable hobby as well as a good and worthy studies. In addition to that, my knowledge on Indonesia histories, cultures and people increase significantly. The wonderful advantages from learning about keris itself.

I have been conned before, made poor judgement and I have often to rely on asking for advice from experts etc and use internet tools to translate languages. But it never stop me, a foreigner from learning keris and I still feel excited rather than disappointed despite many challenges encounter during this journey. I kept a diary and write anything I find it useful about keris in the diary.

To myself, it is more than just buying an object called KERIS. It is understanding the complex, beautiful culture related to it. It is simple just awesome, something like eating a nice Singapore well-cooked authenticate Chilli Crab. Yummy. When I saw an awesome keris, I always imagine it is tasty chilli crab.

I found that local natives have great advantages since they have their fellow countrymen to enquire from, it is easier for them to acquire keris locally, have access to great empu/pande locally and they are already part of this beautiful culture. Myself, it is challenging to do so.

Do not be sad and do not give up. It is a hobby or studies that deserve hardwork and investment of $ and time. It is like cooking a good meal which requires a good deal of time and preparation to do so.
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Old 19th June 2018, 03:10 AM   #16
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Ridho,
What Alan said may be stern, but it is more than fair.

I'd also like to add in my two cents:
I am Indonesian (Sundanese), but Australian born and raised, albeit with a strong cultural and linguistic upbringing. There are tosan aji / pusaka in my family including tombak, kujang and keris which has caused me to learn more about the keris.

I had no idea that the keris is an item born from the Javanese imagination - it's whole narrative and existence is Javanese. While I have a good feeling and insight into folk beliefs and worldviews via Sundanese traditions, myth and esoteric practices, it is similar but in no way the same as that of Orang Jawa, or even of a Orang Sunda who have been raised in that culture and way of living and understanding the world. While I have parallel beliefs and ways of seeing the world, the Western aspect of it (empirical) is hard to override and colours my understanding of the keris.

Nevertheless, I have the appetite to understand and apprehend the keris and what surrounds its. It seems like you do too. Ridho, you are as Alan mentioned in an enviable position here. Use your location and your language to your advantage here. You are in a great position to learn more but it's not an easy thing to learn or understand.

Like all things, this knowledge and information is not just going to be "given" to you just because you're asking on the internet. Though I wish it were that easy

EDITED: I came across as a bit of a jerk due to my tone and wording the first time around. Changed it to be more polite and closer to my tone and intentions.

Last edited by jagabuwana : 19th June 2018 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 19th June 2018, 06:20 PM   #17
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Ridho, I completely agree with the encouraging words written by Alan, Anthony and Jagabuwono. Nothing worthwhile will come easy, and you are indeed in a comfortable position to learn about the keris owing to your geographical and cultural background.
Just take it pelan-pelan, Ridho. One step at a time, and your knowledge - and appreciation - will grow continuously.

On a side note, it is wonderful to see how the keris brings together people from around the world!
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Old 19th June 2018, 11:17 PM   #18
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Bjorn, re your "bringing together people" remark.

This is a very fitting observation.

The nature of the keris is as a binding agent, in a pusaka keris the binding effect is of the bringing together of the present custodian of the keris with past custodians and with all present members of the kin group.

This binding effect is created by the presence of the Naga Basuki (Vasuki), the Naga who binds all in creation:- Naga Basuki flows through the keris, the custodian, past custodians and the present kin group.

In essence, the keris is a bridge that can join humanity.
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Old 20th June 2018, 05:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
In essence, the keris is a bridge that can join humanity.


Alan, in regards to the above part, I feel this is a very fitting function in a Hindu-Buddhist society. I am thinking that it is probably also appropriate to Islam, but as we know Islam in Indonesia is often still the top layer of religious expression, with layers of Hinduism, Buddhism and traditional beliefs underneath.
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Old 20th June 2018, 09:26 PM   #20
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Bjorn, my comment in post 18 was intended as a general observation, a reference to the nature of the keris, not any sort of reference to any present day situation, nor a reference that had anything at all to do with any religious system.

Your previous comment in post 17 that :-

"--- it is wonderful to see how the keris brings together people from around the world."

I thought to be open to the drawing of an analogy between a bridge that permits people to cross a physical barrier, and discussion of an object, in this case the keris, which permits people to negotiate cultural, societal and philosophical barriers.

In the context of my comment, no religious system played any part in the analogy that I drew.
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Old 21st June 2018, 03:54 PM   #21
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Alan, I was unclear in my response. I did not mean to say that your comment was meant in a religious context. My words were poorly chosen.

This context is simply something that ocurred to me personally. I did not mean to imply any intention on your part, nor am I claiming that this rumination of mine is in fact how the keris was perceived by people during Hindu-Buddhist times in nusantara.

The thought that occured to me was that an item - in casu the keris - acting as a physical reminder that all human beings are connected to one another, would fit well within the context of a Hindu-Buddhist worldview.
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Old 22nd June 2018, 11:50 AM   #22
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Yes Bjorn, understood.
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