Spanish(?) Machete Sword with horn grips

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Has the look of a converted bayonet? Perhaps fashioned Ww1 East Africa by the look of the scabbard.

Certainly a South American knife by design and dress... the exact name of the type eludes me at this moment.... there is a more specific form this hilt type is related to...

A similar sheath is seen within this article on the forum, others readily seen on google images.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

Is Chris about, he'll nail it down pretty quickly.

Edit; Found the name I was looking for, Sorocaban, as was mentioned above by AHite.
The etymology section is interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorocaban_knife

[dandon80]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Certainly a South American knife by design and dress... the exact name of the type eludes me at this moment.... there is a more specific form this hilt type is related to...

A similar sheath is seen within this article on the forum, others readily seen on google images.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

Is Chris about, he'll nail it down pretty quickly.

Edit; Found the name I was looking for, Sorocaban, as was mentioned above by AHite.
The etymology section is interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorocaban_knife

Good afternoon Gavin

Thank you very much for the info and references, after looking at them it does seem that this is most likely a Sorocaban or indeed a "Facon". Lots of Gaucho knives show up here in the UK so it does make sense.

It seems that my example is slightly unique with horn grips instead of the usual decorative silver. Alas the maker is still unidentified but I can at least start looking more confidently in the German direction.

Much appreciated!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by dandon80

Good afternoon Gavin

Thank you very much for the info and references, after looking at them it does seem that this is most likely a Sorocaban or indeed a "Facon". Lots of Gaucho knives show up here in the UK so it does make sense.

It seems that my example is slightly unique with horn grips instead of the usual decorative silver. Alas the maker is still unidentified but I can at least start looking more confidently in the German direction.

Much appreciated!

Happy to offer some direction.

In the purest sense, what you have lacks the Sorocaban flair in what is essentially a unique pommel type. Yet when you read the etymology of the type, one can gain some direction.

This might be worth the read? It's a LOT to translate.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/http://www.cutelariaartesanal.com.br/downloads/Facas_Brasileiras_2a_Ed.pdf

Page 12, figure I-04 shows a cleaver with a similar grip.... way down on page 259 I think it is, you will see this image attached, being a newer version of what you have. I do not know where the photo credit lays for further insight.

Below that is from my collection, displaying the classic pommel type.

[Interested Party]

I am going out on a limb here disagreeing with someone with the extensive knowledge of Mr. Nugent based only on a thirty-year-old memory which can at best be very faulty, but I think this knife was European made, and possibly made for Central America. Thought the scabbard does look to be South American. Btw dandon we never did see the front of the scabbard. I am 80% sure I have seen a late 19th century catalog picture of machetes for sale made in Europe and that this was one of the models sold in a few different lengths. It stood out at the time because while I had used machetes of different types and ages extensively, I had never seen a fullered model. The facsimile was a black and white line drawing of many different types of machetes with an item number relating to a description and a price. I am still looking for the book. It was in my grandfather's collection that my father now has. Many people in the Ethno Forum have said before "weapons travel during their life." The scabbard may be Brazilian but that does not mean that it started there. Therefore as to it being Sorocaban are we saying made in Sorocaba or a facao enterçado? To me the OP example being discussed differs from the enterçado in three key features. 1. handle profile, the OP item just seems to have a standard machete handle to me rather than the ottoman style pattern. 2. It has a fuller not a unadorned flatgrind 3. It lacks the defining feature of a riveted enterço. Or once again, are we just thinking that it was produced in the city of Sorocaba? Either way outside of the sheath is their providence linking this knife to that city or style, even to Brazil? I could owe Gavin a "you were right" at the end of this discussion.

I have two questions arising out of this discussion. I. Is this type of sheath always a horseman's sheath? I.e. carried in the back of the body, edge up, on the dominate side? II. A. The enterço or riveted ricasso joining the blade and the tang. Once again relying on my faulty memory is used in some Indian weapons. Was it used in Iron age Celtic blades as well? Anywhere else? B. Is it related visually, aesthetically to this style of ricasso decoration pictured below?

Edit: In the Abel Domenech article's picture as well as in in the horseman picture in the previous post there is a folded leather flap on the outside of the top of the sheath to the hold the sheath and it is carried under the belt. In the original post example, the sheath has a belt loop on the back of the sheath, meaning that it is carried on the outside of the belt.

[Gavin Nugent]

Here is the back of mine... same loop.... are they saddle mount perhaps... I've never seen any wear other than inside carry on person.

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Is Chris about, he'll nail it down pretty quickly.

Hi Gavin,

Sorry to disappoint, but I plead ignorance on this one as it could have come from anywehere, though it does have a Latino look about it, and your suggestion of it being a Sorocaban has merit!

Facons, large thrust oriented knives, were generally not tolerated on the cattle `estancias' as they were not working knives, and the size of this example, puts it loosely in the facon category.

Pampean gauchos were poor vagabonds, later itinerant station hands and gang-pressed troopers, and for knives and facons had to do with whatever came their way.

It could have belonged to a soldier from the many wars, improvised from a bayonet - or perhaps a `montonero', even a gaucho `matrero', in other words an irregular militia man or outlaw, but this is pure speculation on my part.

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Chris,

That's some great cultural insight and context with avenues for further consideration.


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