Help requested with identifying some 14th century heraldry

Lee · 8th November 2010, 04:16 PM

The image below depicts a pair of shield devices inlaid in latten on a 14th century sword that was captured by the Mamelukes and ended up in the Alexandria arsenal.

As the European skirmishers at the time were based out of Cyprus, such a context may be the best starting point.

Any help would be appreciated.

cornelistromp · 8th November 2010, 07:15 PM

Hi Lee,

This form of marking blade is classified in Group 3 of the 4 groups described by D. Alexander in "European swords in the collections of Istanbul."
this type of inlays in copper or brass which includes animals, unicorns, horses,birds, wolves and wild boars aswell letters, circles, rosettes, croisiers and crosses, is found in "wider blades, slightly tapered, with a central groove usually for about half its length, and of a flattened hexagonal section."

D.G Alexander states that this type of sword is often described as German.

The Coat of arms can maybe be found between German Crusader order out of the 14thC.

Kind regards

Reichsritter · 9th November 2010, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

The image below depicts a pair of shield devices inlaid in latten on a 14th century sword that was captured by the Mamelukes and ended up in the Alexandria arsenal.

As the European skirmishers at the time were based out of Cyprus, such a context may be the best starting point.

Any help would be appreciated.

Hi Lee,

On the right shield.. is the Lion Rampant wears a crown ?

Lee · 9th November 2010, 01:33 PM

Thank you gentlemen!

cornelistromp - I can confirm that the blade is exactly of the form you have predicted based upon the inscription.

Reichsritter - The beast (and I personally have also interpreted it as a lion) appears to have a pair of cat ears on a bare head (short and pointy ears with an intervening line for the scalp - so five short lines).

I do apologize for the photo quality - I will see what I can do about getting some decent overall and detail photographs.

Reichsritter · 9th November 2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Thank you gentlemen!

cornelistromp - I can confirm that the blade is exactly of the form you have predicted based upon the inscription.

Reichsritter - The beast (and I personally have also interpreted it as a lion) appears to have a pair of cat ears on a bare head (short and pointy ears with an intervening line for the scalp - so five short lines).

I do apologize for the photo quality - I will see what I can do about getting some decent overall and detail photographs.

Thanks for the info Lee, The cross potent is obviously an early Teutonic symbol with reference to the illuminated manuscript of the poet Tannhäuser from the codex Mannesse (completed in Zurich around 1340).

Yes, at first glance it would look like a lion rampant but hundreds of families carry these symbol. I would like to narrow down that's why I asked if there was a crown. Well, as you say it has pointed ears that resemble a cat. It's now a hint where I should look next ;-) The shield on the left is difficult to identify...although the shield partition "per chevron angled" says it is gold/ yellow if drawn in colored.

By the way, the Teutonic knights has a bailiwick in Armenia-Cyprus

cornelistromp · 9th November 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

Thanks for the info Lee, The cross potent is obviously an early Teutonic symbol with reference to the illuminated manuscript of the poet Tannhäuser from the codex Mannesse (completed in Zurich around 1340).

Yes, at first glance it would look like a lion rampant but hundreds of families carry these symbol. I would like to narrow down that's why I asked if there was a crown. Well, as you say it has pointed ears that resemble a cat. It's now a hint where I should look next ;-) The shield on the left is difficult to identify...although the shield partition "per chevron angled" says it is gold/ yellow if drawn in colored.

By the way, the Teutonic knights has a bailiwick in Armenia-Cyprus

yes this correct! the shield on the left is called "per chevron embattled" and the chevron embattled is hardly used in Germany but quite common in England and France.

Embattled is a version of chief, with signifies domination,white colors represent the sovereignty with peace and sincerity,gold symbolizes a constancy of generosity, lion represents bravery and ferocity (with generosity)or if it is a unicorn, Unicorn represents extreme courage and strength

Can you please post some better pictures of the Lion ( Unicorn?!?!)

thanks+regards

Lee · 9th November 2010, 08:03 PM

Most interesting!

I believe these photos are just a bit clearer. I do apologize for the previous photo quality.

cornelistromp · 9th November 2010, 08:41 PM

Extremely beautiful arsenal sword and also very aesthetic in proportion.
after 1991 classified by Oakeshott as a type XIIA

the squareshaped rounded wheelpommel has been in use from 1300 to 1430.

is there is a Naskh inscription at the reverse side and mark at the tang?

best regards,

Lee · 12th November 2010, 05:02 PM

I agree concerning the fine proportions of this old sword; the juxtaposition of the European and Alexandrian markings in the context of the overall proportions make this one of my personal favorites among the entire group. It is interesting to note, however, that the tip has seen much resharpening over the years, so presumably there was once a more acute and symmetrical point.

Yes, the sword bears an inscription, placed upon both sides of the forte, referring to Sayf al-Din Aristay, thus placing its accession into the arsenal within the first decade of the 15th century.

The flats of the tang are not visible as wooden grips were riveted on, presumably at the time when these swords were mounted in panoplies in the Ottoman trophy hall at St. Irene.

cornelistromp · 12th November 2010, 06:11 PM

yes this type, type XIIa usually has an acute sharp tapered point over the last 5cm.

the amir Aristay, Governor of Alexandria has a bequest period on the know inscripted swords of 1400-1401, this is the year (hijra) 803, this sword is probably approx. 50 years older.

the riveted shells are indeed a replacement done in Alexandria or in the hagia Eirene, all the original European grips cover the 4 sides of the tang as a sandwich.

the majority of the Alexandria swords of this type have a mark stamped at the tang.though it is very interesting, I would not recommend removing the grip.

re: this HUBS with the "v above the Hubs" bequest of the amir Sayf al-Din Aristay. can also be seen on A German sword in Istanbul museum no. 14786
(Ludvik Kalus nr 34) and on an Arsenal sword in the Peter Finer 2005 cataloque.

8th November 2010, 04:16 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 893	Help requested with identifying some 14th century heraldry The image below depicts a pair of shield devices inlaid in latten on a 14th century sword that was captured by the Mamelukes and ended up in the Alexandria arsenal. As the European skirmishers at the time were based out of Cyprus, such a context may be the best starting point. Any help would be appreciated. Attached Images

8th November 2010, 07:15 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Hi Lee, This form of marking blade is classified in Group 3 of the 4 groups described by D. Alexander in "European swords in the collections of Istanbul." this type of inlays in copper or brass which includes animals, unicorns, horses,birds, wolves and wild boars aswell letters, circles, rosettes, croisiers and crosses, is found in "wider blades, slightly tapered, with a central groove usually for about half its length, and of a flattened hexagonal section." D.G Alexander states that this type of sword is often described as German. The Coat of arms can maybe be found between German Crusader order out of the 14thC. Kind regards Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 8th November 2010 at 07:42 PM.

9th November 2010, 01:33 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 893	House cat's ears?!? Thank you gentlemen! cornelistromp - I can confirm that the blade is exactly of the form you have predicted based upon the inscription. Reichsritter - The beast (and I personally have also interpreted it as a lion) appears to have a pair of cat ears on a bare head (short and pointy ears with an intervening line for the scalp - so five short lines). I do apologize for the photo quality - I will see what I can do about getting some decent overall and detail photographs.

9th November 2010, 08:03 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 893	Slightly improved [sic] pictures Most interesting! I believe these photos are just a bit clearer. I do apologize for the previous photo quality. Attached Images

12th November 2010, 05:02 PM	#9
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 893	I agree concerning the fine proportions of this old sword; the juxtaposition of the European and Alexandrian markings in the context of the overall proportions make this one of my personal favorites among the entire group. It is interesting to note, however, that the tip has seen much resharpening over the years, so presumably there was once a more acute and symmetrical point. Yes, the sword bears an inscription, placed upon both sides of the forte, referring to Sayf al-Din Aristay, thus placing its accession into the arsenal within the first decade of the 15th century. The flats of the tang are not visible as wooden grips were riveted on, presumably at the time when these swords were mounted in panoplies in the Ottoman trophy hall at St. Irene. Attached Images

9th November 2010, 08:41 PM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	Extremely beautiful arsenal sword and also very aesthetic in proportion. after 1991 classified by Oakeshott as a type XIIA the squareshaped rounded wheelpommel has been in use from 1300 to 1430. is there is a Naskh inscription at the reverse side and mark at the tang? best regards,

12th November 2010, 06:11 PM	#10
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,057	yes this type, type XIIa usually has an acute sharp tapered point over the last 5cm. the amir Aristay, Governor of Alexandria has a bequest period on the know inscripted swords of 1400-1401, this is the year (hijra) 803, this sword is probably approx. 50 years older. the riveted shells are indeed a replacement done in Alexandria or in the hagia Eirene, all the original European grips cover the 4 sides of the tang as a sandwich. the majority of the Alexandria swords of this type have a mark stamped at the tang.though it is very interesting, I would not recommend removing the grip. re: this HUBS with the "v above the Hubs" bequest of the amir Sayf al-Din Aristay. can also be seen on A German sword in Istanbul museum no. 14786 (Ludvik Kalus nr 34) and on an Arsenal sword in the Peter Finer 2005 cataloque. Attached Images