Moro Sulu Sultanate Flag with Kris and Spear

Battara · 12th July 2009, 11:28 PM

A little different but related. Here is a Moro flag from the Sulu sultanate from around 1900. Rare and with a spear and wavy bladed kris sewn into the design. Enjoy.

Rick · 12th July 2009, 11:42 PM

Very nice !

What is the other symbol Jose ?
The white disc with blue center ... Taming ?

Battara · 13th July 2009, 02:10 AM

Thank you Rick.

As far as that round spot is concerned, I have no idea - hoping some one else can illuminate.

I have seen one with 2 black parts in the white part before.......

Rick · 13th July 2009, 02:17 AM

Where'd you come across that beauty Jose ?
Is it yours ?

If it is , congratulations !

Battara · 13th July 2009, 03:22 AM

Yes it is mine.

Got it off of ebay.

Rick · 13th July 2009, 03:26 AM

Very nice !!

Robert · 13th July 2009, 04:37 AM

Great flag Jose!!

What a rare find and congratulations on being able to score it for your collection. Could you possibly post a picture or two of the opposite side as I would very much like to see a little more detail of how the sword and spear inserts were sewn in place?

Robert

migueldiaz · 13th July 2009, 05:58 AM

Nice flag

What do the five stars represent?

There's a lot of Sulu flags in this website, for comparison purposes.

Robert · 13th July 2009, 06:41 AM

Migueldiaz,
The website you have linked in your post states what I have heard before about the stars, that they represent the five territories of the Sultanate of Sulu. I have no idea if this is correct or not.

Robert

migueldiaz · 13th July 2009, 06:56 AM

Thanks Robert!

Now there's a certain "Ron Z" mentioned in one of the webpages there, as being the resource person. Maybe somebody knows him?

The website says he owns the kris below:

Battara · 13th July 2009, 11:22 PM

Thank you - as far as the other side is concerned, I will try to get a picture of the other side.

As far as Ron Z is concerned, he is Spunger. However, the story if the 5 stars being the provinces of the Sulu Sultanate is in another source as well. I go with this story as well.

Another note, most of the flags like this have straight kris, this one has a wavy bladed kris. The only one of this type of flag I have seen so far.

David · 14th July 2009, 12:28 AM

Nice flag José, and as you point out, even rarer with the wavy kris. Thanks for the flag link Miguel. It is interesting to look at the pre-American colony flags. Obviously these ones with the field of stars is somewhat based on the American flag which intrigues me since the Americans were obviously the enemy of the Moros. Why copy your enemy's flag?

Battara · 14th July 2009, 01:32 AM

If I am not mistaken the Sultan of Sulu at this time sided with the might of the US, though some broke away from this decision as demonstrated by the Battle of Bud Badsak in 1915.

I must make a correction - after looking again at Paolo's site, half the battle flags like mine have a wavy bladed kris in them after all.

migueldiaz · 14th July 2009, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nice flag José, and as you point out, even rarer with the wavy kris. Thanks for the flag link Miguel. It is interesting to look at the pre-American colony flags. Obviously these ones with the field of stars is somewhat based on the American flag which intrigues me since the Americans were obviously the enemy of the Moros. Why copy your enemy's flag?

I think it was a love-hate relationship that existed between the two.

Thus the American flag-inspired version of the Sulu flag must have been crafted during the love phase of the relationship

Dimasalang · 14th July 2009, 09:38 PM

Nice find on ebay! Wish I could be so lucky.
I think the white sphere is a UFO.

Atlantia · 14th July 2009, 10:41 PM

Well! You know I love the 'associated ethnographia', so I doubt you'll be suprised when I add my congratulations!

What a nice and rather unusual piece! A fantastic backdrop for weapons too, I'm always looking for nice things to 'enhance' the display of my weapons. IMHO your flag wold rate as 'He shoots, he scores'.

Regards
Gene

migueldiaz · 15th July 2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

However, the story if the 5 stars being the provinces of the Sulu Sultanate is in another source as well. I go with this story as well.

Thanks for the comment.

On a lighter note, I don't think that my imagined scenario below would be far-fetched

Ferguson · 16th July 2009, 02:12 PM

Jose, that's a really nice flag. You were quite fortunate to win it.
Thanks for sharing with us!

STeve

Battara · 18th July 2009, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Great flag Jose!!

What a rare find and congratulations on being able to score it for your collection. Could you possibly post a picture or two of the opposite side as I would very much like to see a little more detail of how the sword and spear inserts were sewn in place?

Robert

Robert here are finally some pictures of the other side to show how it was sown in. The flag designs were cut out and the pieces sown on top of one side.

Thank you folks for your kind words and enjoy:

Robert · 19th July 2009, 06:57 AM

Jose,
Thank you very much for posting the close-ups of how the white designs were applied to the red back-ground. By looking at the pictures first posted and comparing them to the ones just now posted am I correct in assuming that the designs were applied to one side only and then on the opposite side the red back-ground was cut away to show them? Again, congratulations on being able to acquire this wonderful piece of history and thank you for posting the new pictures.

Robert

Battara · 19th July 2009, 06:28 PM

Yes Robert you are correct in your observations. In some ways this makes the flag more delicate. In fact I am afraid of hanging it even in museum fashion for fear of ripping it.

Robert · 19th July 2009, 06:39 PM

Jose,
Not knowing the dimensions makes it hard to make suggestions on how to best store or display an item like this. If the size is not too great I think that I would have the cloth stabilized, treated to protect it from bugs, mold and mildew and then put in between two panes of glass in a frame so it could be viewed from both sides.

Robert

Rick · 19th July 2009, 07:28 PM

With a mat to keep the cloth from being 'pinched' .

Reichsritter · 3rd August 2009, 02:16 PM

With the arrival of the Americans in Sulu the star became a fancy symbol. The 5 stars represents the sultanate's dominions; Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, Basilan, North Borneo and southern Palawan. This flag seems a different variation to me as it appears without the Barung, for the Shakirullah family. A Datu once told me that weapons on the flag symbolizes branches of the royal family. Kalis for Kiram and Budjak (spear) for the Maharaja Adinda family. The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

migueldiaz · 3rd August 2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

With the arrival of the Americans in Sulu the star became a fancy symbol. The 5 stars represents the sultanate's dominions; Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, Basilan, North Borneo and southern Palawan. This flag seems a different variation to me as it appears without the Barung, for the Shakirullah family. A Datu once told me that weapons on the flag symbolizes branches of the royal family. Kalis for Kiram and Budjak (spear) for the Maharaja Adinda family. The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

Reichsritter, very interesting! Thanks for the info.

Dimasalang · 3rd August 2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

Of my limited knowledge here, I know on some flags and banners, the "II" symbol represents the two gates of Mecca. But this is just one "I" and it is on its side?

Battara · 4th August 2009, 01:28 AM

Reichsritter - I also thank you for the information. Very helpful. I have seen several of these without the barung, and some with the barung.

Check out these examples:

http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_2.html
http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_3.html
http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_4.html

Dimasalang - good point about the gates of Mecca.

Reichsritter · 4th August 2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

Of my limited knowledge here, I know on some flags and banners, the "II" symbol represents the two gates of Mecca. But this is just one "I" and it is on its side?

Dimasalang, I think the "II" symbol is not the Roman numerals for 2 but the Minaret on the gates. The first Sultan of Sulu to perform the pilgrimage was Badaruddin II (1881-1886). On his account he would described what the gates looks like.

Battara, I don't know what year this flag was but during the American occupation of Sulu there was a point that the Shakirullah branch was a rival claimant to the throne.

Dimasalang · 4th August 2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

Dimasalang, I think the "II" symbol is not the Roman numerals for 2 but the Minaret on the gates. The first Sultan of Sulu to perform the pilgrimage was Badaruddin II (1881-1886). On his account he would described what the gates looks like.

Sorry, what I meant by "II" was in reference to the symbol seen in this photo...not Roman numerals. Thought you would understand what I meant by just typing "II".

Reichsritter · 4th August 2009, 10:12 AM

[QUOTE=Dimasalang]Sorry, what I meant by "II" was in reference to the symbol seen in this photo...not Roman numerals. Thought you would understand what I meant by just typing "II".

Thanks, I see now what you mean. what I also mean is the old gate less the minaret on both side. The silhouette of the main Mecca Masjid gate just looks like it. Anyway, just a probable explanation. Actually very little info available on what these objects on different flags really are (except for the minarets on the gate). By the way , the owner of the website is a friend of mine. Paolo would be very glad to share any new info he might have regarding the flags. I met him here in Manila 3 years ago.

12th July 2009, 11:28 PM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Moro Sulu Sultanate Flag with Kris and Spear A little different but related. Here is a Moro flag from the Sulu sultanate from around 1900. Rare and with a spear and wavy bladed kris sewn into the design. Enjoy. Attached Images

13th July 2009, 06:56 AM	#10
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks Robert! Now there's a certain "Ron Z" mentioned in one of the webpages there, as being the resource person. Maybe somebody knows him? The website says he owns the kris below: Attached Images

12th July 2009, 11:42 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Very nice ! What is the other symbol Jose ? The white disc with blue center ... Taming ?

13th July 2009, 02:10 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you Rick. As far as that round spot is concerned, I have no idea - hoping some one else can illuminate. I have seen one with 2 black parts in the white part before.......

13th July 2009, 02:17 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Where'd you come across that beauty Jose ? Is it yours ? If it is , congratulations !

13th July 2009, 03:22 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes it is mine. Got it off of ebay.

13th July 2009, 03:26 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Very nice !!

13th July 2009, 04:37 AM	#7
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Great flag Jose!! What a rare find and congratulations on being able to score it for your collection. Could you possibly post a picture or two of the opposite side as I would very much like to see a little more detail of how the sword and spear inserts were sewn in place? Robert

13th July 2009, 05:58 AM	#8
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Nice flag What do the five stars represent? There's a lot of Sulu flags in this website, for comparison purposes.

13th July 2009, 06:41 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Migueldiaz, The website you have linked in your post states what I have heard before about the stars, that they represent the five territories of the Sultanate of Sulu. I have no idea if this is correct or not. Robert

13th July 2009, 11:22 PM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thank you - as far as the other side is concerned, I will try to get a picture of the other side. As far as Ron Z is concerned, he is Spunger. However, the story if the 5 stars being the provinces of the Sulu Sultanate is in another source as well. I go with this story as well. Another note, most of the flags like this have straight kris, this one has a wavy bladed kris. The only one of this type of flag I have seen so far.

14th July 2009, 12:28 AM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,028	Nice flag José, and as you point out, even rarer with the wavy kris. Thanks for the flag link Miguel. It is interesting to look at the pre-American colony flags. Obviously these ones with the field of stars is somewhat based on the American flag which intrigues me since the Americans were obviously the enemy of the Moros. Why copy your enemy's flag?

14th July 2009, 01:32 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	If I am not mistaken the Sultan of Sulu at this time sided with the might of the US, though some broke away from this decision as demonstrated by the Battle of Bud Badsak in 1915. I must make a correction - after looking again at Paolo's site, half the battle flags like mine have a wavy bladed kris in them after all.

14th July 2009, 09:38 PM	#15
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Nice find on ebay! Wish I could be so lucky. I think the white sphere is a UFO.

14th July 2009, 10:41 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well! You know I love the 'associated ethnographia', so I doubt you'll be suprised when I add my congratulations! What a nice and rather unusual piece! A fantastic backdrop for weapons too, I'm always looking for nice things to 'enhance' the display of my weapons. IMHO your flag wold rate as 'He shoots, he scores'. Regards Gene

16th July 2009, 02:12 PM	#18
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Jose, that's a really nice flag. You were quite fortunate to win it. Thanks for sharing with us! STeve

19th July 2009, 06:57 AM	#20
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Jose, Thank you very much for posting the close-ups of how the white designs were applied to the red back-ground. By looking at the pictures first posted and comparing them to the ones just now posted am I correct in assuming that the designs were applied to one side only and then on the opposite side the red back-ground was cut away to show them? Again, congratulations on being able to acquire this wonderful piece of history and thank you for posting the new pictures. Robert

19th July 2009, 06:28 PM	#21
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes Robert you are correct in your observations. In some ways this makes the flag more delicate. In fact I am afraid of hanging it even in museum fashion for fear of ripping it.

19th July 2009, 06:39 PM	#22
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Jose, Not knowing the dimensions makes it hard to make suggestions on how to best store or display an item like this. If the size is not too great I think that I would have the cloth stabilized, treated to protect it from bugs, mold and mildew and then put in between two panes of glass in a frame so it could be viewed from both sides. Robert

19th July 2009, 07:28 PM	#23
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	With a mat to keep the cloth from being 'pinched' .

3rd August 2009, 02:16 PM	#24
Reichsritter Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26	With the arrival of the Americans in Sulu the star became a fancy symbol. The 5 stars represents the sultanate's dominions; Sulu, Tawi-Tawi, Basilan, North Borneo and southern Palawan. This flag seems a different variation to me as it appears without the Barung, for the Shakirullah family. A Datu once told me that weapons on the flag symbolizes branches of the royal family. Kalis for Kiram and Budjak (spear) for the Maharaja Adinda family. The object below can be the gate of Mecca as what the former flags states.

4th August 2009, 01:28 AM	#27
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Reichsritter - I also thank you for the information. Very helpful. I have seen several of these without the barung, and some with the barung. Check out these examples: http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_2.html http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_3.html http://www.webalice.it/paopadd/MORO_...FLAGS_-_4.html Dimasalang - good point about the gates of Mecca.

4th August 2009, 10:12 AM	#30
Reichsritter Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 26	[QUOTE=Dimasalang]Sorry, what I meant by "II" was in reference to the symbol seen in this photo...not Roman numerals. Thought you would understand what I meant by just typing "II". Thanks, I see now what you mean. what I also mean is the old gate less the minaret on both side. The silhouette of the main Mecca Masjid gate just looks like it. Anyway, just a probable explanation. Actually very little info available on what these objects on different flags really are (except for the minarets on the gate). By the way , the owner of the website is a friend of mine. Paolo would be very glad to share any new info he might have regarding the flags. I met him here in Manila 3 years ago.