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Old 28th November 2022, 07:33 PM   #31
Peter Hudson
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Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'.

I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.


Jim, it also points to similar rules across Europe as I discovered by applying for a definition at Wikipedia" I QUOTE. "

British Isles

: Welsh Marches and Scottish Marches
The name of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom in the midlands of England was Mercia. The name "Mercia" comes from the Old English for "boundary folk", and the traditional interpretation was that the kingdom originated along the frontier between the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxon invaders, although P. Hunter Blair has argued an alternative interpretation that they emerged along the frontier between the Kingdom of Northumbria and the inhabitants of the River Trent valley.

Latinizing the Anglo-Saxon term mearc, the border areas between England and Wales were collectively known as the Welsh Marches (marchia Wallia), while the native Welsh lands to the west were considered Wales Proper (pura Wallia). The Norman lords in the Welsh Marches were to become the new Marcher Lords.

The title Earl of March is at least two distinct feudal titles: one in the northern marches, as an alternative title for the Earl of Dunbar (c. 1290 in the Peerage of Scotland); and one, that was held by the family of Mortimer (1328 in the Peerage of England), in the west Welsh Marches.

The Scottish Marches is a term for the border regions on both sides of the border between England and Scotland. From the Norman conquest of England until the reign of King James VI of Scotland, who also became King James I of England, border clashes were common and the monarchs of both countries relied on Marcher Lords to defend the frontier areas known as the Marches. They were hand-picked for their suitability for the challenges the responsibilities presented.

Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of Dunbar, a descendant of the Earls of Northumbria was recognized in the end of the 13th century to use the name March as his earldom in Scotland, otherwise known as Dunbar, Lothian, and Northumbrian border.

Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, Regent of England together with Isabella of France during the minority of her son, Edward III, was a usurper who had deposed, and allegedly arranged the murder of, King Edward II. He was created an earl in September 1328 at the height of his de facto rule. His wife was Joan de Geneville, 2nd Baroness Geneville, whose mother, Jeanne of Lusignan was one of the heiresses of the French Counts of La Marche and Angouleme.

His family, Mortimer Lords of Wigmore, had been border lords and leaders of defenders of Welsh marches for centuries. He selected March as the name of his earldom for several reasons: Welsh marches referred to several counties, whereby the title signified superiority compared to usual single county-based earldoms. Mercia was an ancient kingdom. His wife's ancestors had been Counts of La Marche and Angouleme in France.

In Ireland, a hybrid system of marches existed which was condemned as barbaric at the time.[a] The Irish marches constituted the territory between English and Irish-dominated lands, which appeared as soon as the English did and were called by King John to be fortified.[10] By the 14th century, they had become defined as the land between The Pale and the rest of Ireland.[11] Local Anglo-Irish and Gaelic chieftains who acted as powerful spokespeople were recognised by the Crown and given a degree of independence. Uniquely, the keepers of the marches were given the power to terminate indictments. In later years, wardens of the Irish marches took Irish tenants.[12][13][14]".UNQUOTE.

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Old 28th November 2022, 08:50 PM   #32
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Thank you Peter! That really deepens the texture of these border regions in this more complex understanding. MOST interesting! Thank you.
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Old 29th November 2022, 05:17 PM   #33
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I think evidence of the follow on of The Northern Horse virtually wiped off the battlefield in 1644 at Marsden Moor may be observed at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rabble-Gent.../dp/1911512986

Here I am talking about the actual animal which after the battle must have been rounded up and sold ..apparently across England.

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Old 29th November 2022, 09:22 PM   #34
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You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ? .
Hello Fernando; late in responding: I've been AWOL this weekend.
Graham's Port is available in any of our supermarkets and is an acceptable drop; but I visited a shop in Lisbon on several occasions (corner shop on the edge of the city-center close to the river; sadly, I forget its name) that brings the truth of my previous satisfactory experiences into disrepute. This shop, and its owner made me realise just what a truly wonderful product Port can be. I love Lisbon... especially at Christmas in a tuc-tuc after a couple of glasses.
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Old 30th November 2022, 03:42 PM   #35
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Just browse the Net on "Ne Oblie" selective Graham's Port cast, to better see what i meant .
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Old 30th November 2022, 05:05 PM   #36
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Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/
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Old 30th November 2022, 05:46 PM   #37
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Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/
This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

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Old 30th November 2022, 06:20 PM   #38
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Further more ... It also meant to give someone a thrust of the broadsword ..To give someone a Whinge .
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Old 30th November 2022, 08:23 PM   #39
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Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/
I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum
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Old 2nd December 2022, 04:56 PM   #40
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I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum
Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
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Old 2nd December 2022, 05:48 PM   #41
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Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

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Old 2nd December 2022, 09:08 PM   #42
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Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/
This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 06:02 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/
This is really interesting Peter! and I had never heard of this 'Lockerbie Lick'! I always wonder at the many localized idioms used to describe these sword fighting 'tricks'. It seems the Scots had very distinct moves and measures they employed in fencing, and these are well described by Donald McBane in "The Expert Swordsmans Companion"(1728) and the "Scots Fencing Master" by Sir William Hope (1687).

The Spaniards in their mysterious, geometric 'Spanish fight' called destreza, used many unique 'tricks' which were regarded as formidable, if not deadly, despite the derision with which this elaborate style was often regarded.
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Old 3rd December 2022, 06:30 PM   #44
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Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

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Old 3rd December 2022, 08:58 PM   #45
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Hello Jim,
In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism...

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Old 3rd December 2022, 09:27 PM   #46
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One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023

Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe.
The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc...

Peter Hudson.

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Old 3rd December 2022, 09:31 PM   #47
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Default Separated by a common language.

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention.
This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language.
Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase.

This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from?
It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then.
Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely.
I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here.
All input is gratefully received.

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Old 3rd December 2022, 10:10 PM   #48
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I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

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Old 3rd December 2022, 10:15 PM   #49
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Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread?
I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.
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Old 4th December 2022, 07:49 PM   #50
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In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to

http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm

and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour.
Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century.
Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'.
They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle!
Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE.

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Old 4th December 2022, 09:19 PM   #51
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I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.
Spot on! The term 'colichemarde' term is entirely with respect to the blade, as the hilt forms are the same as on the small swords of the period. The term is apocryphal but the alignment with the cognate Konigsmark seems reasonable enough. His reputation as a duelist was likely the choice to term the blade form.
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Old 5th December 2022, 10:09 PM   #52
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Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?
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Old 5th December 2022, 10:12 PM   #53
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Peter, this stuff is fantastic... thank-you.
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Old 6th December 2022, 01:21 AM   #54
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Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?
''
Keith,
I am not sure... It is a bit unclear ...see https://military-history.fandom.com/...#Brief_history...which is also unclear...Peter
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Old 6th December 2022, 04:44 PM   #55
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The muddle is best seen at https://core.ac.uk/reader/161102560

while the full story is worth looking at...even if the mathematics are a puzzle...The familytree does however seem to be pointing at Karl Johan as the more likely root of this swords start point...

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Old 8th December 2022, 11:32 PM   #56
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This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

From "Hunting Weapons", 1971, H.L.Blackmore, p.14:
"...whineyard, whinyard or in its Scottish form, whinger, is defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as a hanger".
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Old 1st February 2023, 05:22 PM   #57
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In observing my #1 at thread starter it occurred to me that I have not yet uncovered the answer to the main question...Here is the problem outlined at #1 THE BORDER REIVERS.
For my main reference I will lean heavily on a good solid base of information at Wikipedia and begin with a quote and a few questions since Sir Walter Scott is said to have quoted Elizabeth 1st as having said that "With ten thousand such men, James VI could shake any throne in Europe."

Thus my question is; If this was the case then why didnt the English recruit these superb horsemen into their order of battle and who were they and what became of them?




The main reason for that is because there is not simply one answer but a host of reasons for their decline some outlined at #13 on thread (viz; In about 1603 when the Union of the Crowns occurred and by then the Borders were extinct... not even the word Borders was allowed and new laws were in place essentially trebling the fines against thieves ...and being caught with a horse could mean jail and or the chopping block. Even the famous Galloway horse was doomed thus the famous Border Reivers were closed down, rounded up, and either transported or killed...) It is apparent that they were also hammered on all sides by not only legal factors but also pressure, threats and persecution often amounting to death penalties, execution without trial, torture and imprisonment from every angle from all levels of society, military tribunal, court orders Royal Decree and national and regional laws over a pressurised period from about 1530 through to probably 1644... The latter date suggested by me since that was the battle of Marsdon Moor which largely threw a huge spanner into the works when the Marquis of Newcastle fielded about 3,000 whitecoats (better known as Northumberland Horse "possibly" decended from Border Rievers...) both as Cavalry and Infantry and according to Prince Rupert arrived on the position late and drunk... and who were wiped out almost to a man as only about 30 survived) This over simplified version is something of a smoke screen and cannot have been the date on which the actual Border Rievers became extinct. I much prefer the huge dislocation and erosion of the disastrous period in Northumberland between 1542 and 1560.

Please See http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/2743/

This will take you to a page of ABSTRACT (printed below) and above that see the sign PDF. Click on that and it opens.

The over riding document is a much more detailed, broadly based description of what the true answer is.

The final phase of the Anglo-Scots Wars (1542-1560) significantly affected Northumberland. The Tudor government attempted to use the militarised society of Northumberland a s a means of subduing Scotland. However, the ensuing conflict took a heavy toll on the Marches. Instability plagued the region, while leading military families feuded with each other. The efforts of the Tudors were not concerted enough to overcome the Marches' allegiance to kith and kin. March society proved to be remarkably inhospitable for Tudor state building, and in the end, the military community of Northumberland remained just as vulnerable to both internal and external threats as it had been before the wars. This work questions the success of Tudor state building տ the mid-sixteenth century. The analysis employs both State Papers and local documents to illuminate the political dialogue between central government and the peripheral frontier administration. Official correspondences of March officers also highlight the depths to which Tudor policy had taken root in Northumberland. An analysis of muster rolls suggests that Northumbrian society’s involvement in the wars greatly fluctuated over nearly a twenty-year period, only to see the military capacities of Northumbrians significantly wane by 1560. The personal testimonies of officers imply that the Tudors had some initial success in bringing significant military power to their side. However, the same documents also suggest that incoherent policies resulted from the rapid succession of three separate monarchs after the death of Henry V111. In the end, the Tudor state was unable to instil order in Northumberland, and the military necessities of frontier security remained problematic for the rest of the sixteenth century.

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Old 2nd February 2023, 07:42 PM   #58
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You can look no further than Newcastle, sometimes occupied by the Scots, sometimes the English, as an example of shifting loyalties... rather than divided loyalties - which, of course, constantly prevailed:

The North of England had long been viewed by those in the South as a den of Popery. "Half of the population is of the Popist faith and the other half are well-disposed towards it" wrote one Southerner. Actually, half of England's population were indifferent to religion back then, the remaining half were divided about 50/50: Catholic/Protestant.

In August 1688, the Mayor and Corporation of Newcastle sent congratulations to King James (VII/II) on the birth of his son: "…a blessing on the Prince of Wales". But in November of the same year, after the Glorious Revolution, that same Mayor and Corporation declared their allegiance to the Prince of Orange (William III) with the mob dragging the statue of a mounted King James from its base on the riverside and throwing it into the river.

The Romans made a right dammed mess of life around the Tyne - which was never a natural border, as observation of sheep farming practices will show.

Most of Northumberland remained essentially Scottish in the wake of the Roman occupation, but the loyalty of Northern barons, during the reign of King John, were never secure, and Westminster preferred to deal in bribery and corruption in an attempt to ensure a secure buffer zone. Hence the glorious opportunities for the clans.
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Old 2nd February 2023, 11:09 PM   #59
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Hi Kieth, You are right and it is clear that Religion also played into the mix. Even in recent history we have seen Catholic riots in the North East and the raft of arguements based on conflicting religious issues during and after Tudor reigns were common.

The question about whether Border Rievers could have been used as a kind of super battle group of top notch Cavalry is an interesting one although I sense it was more of a propaganda tool which may have worked or may have failed ~Im not entirely convinced. They were tough, good, troopers highly skilled but fell apart across the board though some at least may have retained jobs on the continent as horsemen to a certain degree although the question as to their ability to learn new tactics and change with cavalry warfare comes under pressure as does their loyalty... the latter being understandable under the circumstances.. Some became mercenaries while others used their expertise in foreign lands such as Ireland and in the Americas in such places as the Appalachians and where surnames like Nixon ...and Armstrong cropped up with many others....

Anyway their warlike nature despite their agressiveness took such a battering across the entire spectrum that they inevitably collapsed and many were uprooted and transplanted to other areas and countries. ...

The continued avalanche of rediculous laws and decrees must surely be where the problem caused or added to their downfall and disintegration. In the final years of their rise to fame it can be seen how their own self destruction and warring between families eventually eroded their chances of ever morphing into a crack English or British Cavalry outfit...where ten thousand of them could certainly have changed the outcome of many conflicts.

Therefor I conclude that ...as per the end of the ABSTRACT above in #57 The personal testimonies of officers imply that the Tudors had some initial success in bringing significant military power to their side. However, the same documents also suggest that incoherent policies resulted from the rapid succession of three separate monarchs after the death of Henry V111. In the end, the Tudor state was unable to instil order in Northumberland, and the military necessities of frontier security remained problematic for the rest of the sixteenth century.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:00 PM   #60
Jim McDougall
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This is an extremely complex topic, and field of study, and to be quite honest, it was far too daunting for my own researches of many years back. However, the attached article I saved from 1996 reveals that I did have an interest in that I realized the importance of the Border Reivers in overall study of the history of British arms.

Actually, I did not realize the magnitude of this until meeting Peter and Keith some years ago, and though I cannot claim a full understanding of this key group of people, I have learned a great deal.
I know now that the 'Reivers' are an important link in Scottish and English history, and the likely source for many of the intriguing variants in these types of arms and armor so often encountered.

With regard to the political and potential of military viability of the Reivers, it does seem like in the beginning of the 17th century, English monarchs desperate for the union between Scotland and England launched many punitive expeditions into these regions. This effected mostly more intense descent into lawlessness and even less cohesiveness among these groups, who were more about family and clan than any recognized entity.

As numbered groups however, it does seem that they did have elements of martial viability, as noted,
"...as late as 1648, at the height of the Civil War, "English cavaliers" along with some "malignants of Scotland" numbering over 70 horsemen with a small number of foot came to Carlisle with ladders, scaled the walls, entered the castle, . broke open the gaol, released Moss troopers and other prisoners, wounded the gaoler and all marched off into Scotland".

Into the Jacobite rebellions, it is well known that these conflicts were not about Jacobite (for the Stuarts) vs. the English Hanoverians alone. The men fighting in these were about numerous disparate ajendas, not that alone.
Many were about religious reasons, defending their Episcopalian Faith. There were as many involved in clan disputes, vendettas and conflicts.

It was much like the Civil wars, both in England and America. Families had participants fighting against each other for separate ideals. In Scotland there were many separate groups, Highlanders, Lowlanders, Islesmen in the main categories.

With the Reivers, they were on the border(?) the ethereal divider between kingdoms, geographically. Stronger was the bond of clan, family and among Reivers, the fealty was equally divided as to which or to whom, and that could change at any time.

All of this is as Peter and Keith have well explained, and I only add my own notes to finally grasp it all myself.

As the descendant myself of Islesmen in the Highlands, and both Peter and Keith directly descended from Reiver families, it is intriguing to know our ancestors were in one way or another involved in these events in these times.
It has been the greatest adventure to learn all of this through them.
Thank you guys!
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