Bali Keris Info & Advice Requested

David · 24th March 2024, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

In my opinion there is a good possibility that all modifications could originate in Bali or Lombok.
Also opinion only!

I don't know about the hilt. I really can't see anything Balinese in that. It seems very well made though. But i have never seen mother of pearl and nail decorations like that on Balinese or Lombok hilts. It puts me a little in mind of this type of decorations from recent Luzon knives, though perhaps a bit classier.

A. G. Maisey · 25th March 2024, 12:38 AM

Detlef, my phrasing was:-

"--- some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali. ---"

I did not say, nor think, that the person who applied the red paint might have had a deep knowledge of Bali-Hindu religion.

However, if we look at the possible intended symbolism that could be attached to the paint job & its placement, what we have is this:-

sogokan> lingga> Siwa

red> Brahma

black> Wisnu

and there we have the Trimurti.

Whoever wielded the paint brush could very probably have had sufficient understanding to think that he was doing something in tune with Balinese mores.

In respect of these modifications being carried out in either Bali or in Lombok, in my opinion that is a total impossibility.

In Bali & Lombok the keris is a clearly defined item of dress, it MUST comply with certain specific standards, this keris under discussion is totally outside of the required parameters, not only that, but the hilt in particular is quite ludicrous in an indigenous context.

As others commented, for a collector outside of the relevant societies, this keris as presented is quite collectable, but for wear in Bali or Lombok?

I rather think not.

Sajen · 27th March 2024, 08:21 AM

Hello Alan,

I just was going with the well patinated reshaped scabbard. Such a patination doesn't happen in a short time.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 27th March 2024, 11:40 AM

I agree Detlef, the scabbard has some age, but that is not really relevant.

That scabbard could have moved to anywhere at any time, & if it had been damaged in Bali to the point where it could not have been worn, it would have been replaced, not cobbled up into some outlandish shape that fits nowhere.

At the end of the day we have what I think is probably a pretty nice blade that drifted away from its place of creation & somehow, in someway, got itself dressed up in secondhand clothes from a Salvation Army Store --- so to speak.

These outlandish clothes have covered its nakedness, so its not going to get itself arrested for indecent exposure, but dressed as it is, it really doesn't fit into any decent society.

Seems everybody wants to leave it as it is, maybe because as it is, it is really quite amusing, but if it were mine I'd burn the stuff out of the Salvation Army Store & give it clothes that would not embarrass it.

But then again, I do have a soft spot for the down and outers of this world.

RobT · 29th March 2024, 01:12 AM

Hi All,

Thanks to all for all the input.
When I first saw this piece, it was in the sheath and I thought to myself, what a small and slender Moro kris. Then I saw the blade and realized it was Balinese.
So, what we have here is a Bali blade that has been painted by someone with enough knowledge of Hindu religious belief to choose colors evocative of Siva but without enough knowledge of Balinese culture to know that his paint job was inappropriate. On top of that, we have a hilt from goodness knows where and perhaps made from variously sourced parts but with a selut and tang hole that will fit an Indonesian keris. There’s one thing I would be willing to bet. If the hilt was added in the Southern Philippines, it wasn’t by the same guy that did the painting (unless the colors were chosen for some other and non-Hindu reason). Finally, we have what appears to be a sarong iras with a very badly damaged wranka that somebody thought enough of to modify and then add an inline border to the back side. I would love to see a picture of what the wranka looked like originally because, even with parts missing, it’s bigger than any Balinese wranka I have ever seen. Because it’s so big, I could see someone in the Southern Philippines wishing to repair and keep it. I can see the fabric wrap around the gandar as having been added in the Philippines also.
I am partially leaning toward A. G. Maisey’s advice. I think that someday an appropriate hilt and uwer would be nice but I think I will keep the sheath as is. When I eventually use a heat gun to remove the hilt (or at very least turn it to face properly), I will wrap the blade in a wet towel in an effort to preserve the paint. I know that the things chosen to keep and chosen to change are rather skewed (especially when viewed from the prospective of the original culture) but that’s what I’m thinking I may do someday. I’m in no hurry.

Sincerely,
RobT

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2024, 01:44 AM

Rob, I would not use a heat gun, in my experience the heat generated is spread too widely.

I have on occasion used a heat gun as a heat source, but I am very selective in what I use it on.

If I were remove the hilt on this keris I would probably use a gas flame, but I seldom recommend this to other people --- I have removed at least hundreds of hilts from keris, pedang & other blades, for a first up, one off attempt I would never recommend a gas flame.

What I have used many times is the flame of a candle, it is a bit dirty, but the soot washes off easy with turps, and the blade needs a clean & stain in any case.

When I use a candle I hold the blade in my hand and gently work the hilt back & forth until it lets go.

David · 29th March 2024, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,
Thanks to all for all the input.
When I first saw this piece, it was in the sheath and I thought to myself, what a small and slender Moro kris. Then I saw the blade and realized it was Balinese.
So, what we have here is a Bali blade that has been painted by someone with enough knowledge of Hindu religious belief to choose colors evocative of Siva but without enough knowledge of Balinese culture to know that his paint job was inappropriate. On top of that, we have a hilt from goodness knows where and perhaps made from variously sourced parts but with a selut and tang hole that will fit an Indonesian keris. There’s one thing I would be willing to bet. If the hilt was added in the Southern Philippines, it wasn’t by the same guy that did the painting (unless the colors were chosen for some other and non-Hindu reason). Finally, we have what appears to be a sarong iras with a very badly damaged wranka that somebody thought enough of to modify and then add an inline border to the back side. I would love to see a picture of what the wranka looked like originally because, even with parts missing, it’s bigger than any Balinese wranka I have ever seen. Because it’s so big, I could see someone in the Southern Philippines wishing to repair and keep it. I can see the fabric wrap around the gandar as having been added in the Philippines also.
I am partially leaning toward A. G. Maisey’s advice. I think that someday an appropriate hilt and uwer would be nice but I think I will keep the sheath as is. When I eventually use a heat gun to remove the hilt (or at very least turn it to face properly), I will wrap the blade in a wet towel in an effort to preserve the paint. I know that the things chosen to keep and chosen to change are rather skewed (especially when viewed from the prospective of the original culture) but that’s what I’m thinking I may do someday. I’m in no hurry.

It might be helpful if we knew the dimensions here. How long is this blade? Is it bigger than the average Bali blade. Obviously a sarung (wrongko) needs to be large enough to house the blade, but i'm not sure why that sarung would be bigger than most unless the blade also is. I'm not sure this is an iras sarung considering that the stem is covered and may be hiding the joint. You say this is fabric? From the photos it appeared to be some kind of tape.
I know that i suggested that the hilt looked like something that may have been made in the Philippines and it still does to me. But regarding your desire to preserve the black and red paint, how likely is it for someone in the Philippines to want to add Hindu symbolism to this adapted keris. The Hindu population in the Philippines is rather small, largely confined to the Indian Filipinos and the expatriate Indian community. I'm not sure that just because this is a Balinese blade that we can assume it was adapted to this dress by a Hindu. Still, i understand that you want to preserve the pigment. If i were to restore this blade i would be more focussed on staining it to bring out the pamor than saving these pigments. But i respect that you would rather save this aspect. But i believe you will find that wrapping the blade in a wet towel to protect the colours will work to your disadvantage while trying to remove the hilt with heat. It is the blade that needs to heat up to soften the adhesive and i would think a wet towel around the blade would make getting it to a high enough temperature a problem. Perhaps there is some other way to protect the paint.

A. G. Maisey · 29th March 2024, 09:43 PM

How this keris is treated from this point forward is very largely dependent upon the orientation of the collector who has it.

If a curio collector, then leave as is, if a keris collector, redress as Bali.

The blade is 17.75"long (post 1), taking into consideration the garap, most certainly this is a Bali blade.

29th March 2024, 01:12 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 456	Thanks & Plans Hi All, Thanks to all for all the input. When I first saw this piece, it was in the sheath and I thought to myself, what a small and slender Moro kris. Then I saw the blade and realized it was Balinese. So, what we have here is a Bali blade that has been painted by someone with enough knowledge of Hindu religious belief to choose colors evocative of Siva but without enough knowledge of Balinese culture to know that his paint job was inappropriate. On top of that, we have a hilt from goodness knows where and perhaps made from variously sourced parts but with a selut and tang hole that will fit an Indonesian keris. There’s one thing I would be willing to bet. If the hilt was added in the Southern Philippines, it wasn’t by the same guy that did the painting (unless the colors were chosen for some other and non-Hindu reason). Finally, we have what appears to be a sarong iras with a very badly damaged wranka that somebody thought enough of to modify and then add an inline border to the back side. I would love to see a picture of what the wranka looked like originally because, even with parts missing, it’s bigger than any Balinese wranka I have ever seen. Because it’s so big, I could see someone in the Southern Philippines wishing to repair and keep it. I can see the fabric wrap around the gandar as having been added in the Philippines also. I am partially leaning toward A. G. Maisey’s advice. I think that someday an appropriate hilt and uwer would be nice but I think I will keep the sheath as is. When I eventually use a heat gun to remove the hilt (or at very least turn it to face properly), I will wrap the blade in a wet towel in an effort to preserve the paint. I know that the things chosen to keep and chosen to change are rather skewed (especially when viewed from the prospective of the original culture) but that’s what I’m thinking I may do someday. I’m in no hurry. Sincerely, RobT

25th March 2024, 12:38 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	Detlef, my phrasing was:- "--- some understanding of socio-religious mores in Bali. ---" I did not say, nor think, that the person who applied the red paint might have had a deep knowledge of Bali-Hindu religion. However, if we look at the possible intended symbolism that could be attached to the paint job & its placement, what we have is this:- sogokan> lingga> Siwa red> Brahma black> Wisnu and there we have the Trimurti. Whoever wielded the paint brush could very probably have had sufficient understanding to think that he was doing something in tune with Balinese mores. In respect of these modifications being carried out in either Bali or in Lombok, in my opinion that is a total impossibility. In Bali & Lombok the keris is a clearly defined item of dress, it MUST comply with certain specific standards, this keris under discussion is totally outside of the required parameters, not only that, but the hilt in particular is quite ludicrous in an indigenous context. As others commented, for a collector outside of the relevant societies, this keris as presented is quite collectable, but for wear in Bali or Lombok? I rather think not.

27th March 2024, 08:21 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,557	Hello Alan, I just was going with the well patinated reshaped scabbard. Such a patination doesn't happen in a short time. Regards, Detlef

27th March 2024, 11:40 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	I agree Detlef, the scabbard has some age, but that is not really relevant. That scabbard could have moved to anywhere at any time, & if it had been damaged in Bali to the point where it could not have been worn, it would have been replaced, not cobbled up into some outlandish shape that fits nowhere. At the end of the day we have what I think is probably a pretty nice blade that drifted away from its place of creation & somehow, in someway, got itself dressed up in secondhand clothes from a Salvation Army Store --- so to speak. These outlandish clothes have covered its nakedness, so its not going to get itself arrested for indecent exposure, but dressed as it is, it really doesn't fit into any decent society. Seems everybody wants to leave it as it is, maybe because as it is, it is really quite amusing, but if it were mine I'd burn the stuff out of the Salvation Army Store & give it clothes that would not embarrass it. But then again, I do have a soft spot for the down and outers of this world.

29th March 2024, 01:44 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	Rob, I would not use a heat gun, in my experience the heat generated is spread too widely. I have on occasion used a heat gun as a heat source, but I am very selective in what I use it on. If I were remove the hilt on this keris I would probably use a gas flame, but I seldom recommend this to other people --- I have removed at least hundreds of hilts from keris, pedang & other blades, for a first up, one off attempt I would never recommend a gas flame. What I have used many times is the flame of a candle, it is a bit dirty, but the soot washes off easy with turps, and the blade needs a clean & stain in any case. When I use a candle I hold the blade in my hand and gently work the hilt back & forth until it lets go.

29th March 2024, 09:43 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,730	How this keris is treated from this point forward is very largely dependent upon the orientation of the collector who has it. If a curio collector, then leave as is, if a keris collector, redress as Bali. The blade is 17.75"long (post 1), taking into consideration the garap, most certainly this is a Bali blade.