Tlingit Double Dagger

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

Wasn't von Daniken an alien?

That all depends on where you are from...

[fearn]

Ummm,

Unless we're talking iron ground from a meteorite (as in the Cape York meteorites), I'm pretty sure that the Pacific Northwest Indians didn't make their own iron.
Here's why:

1. Geology. As a west-coaster, I know a little about the geology here. It's great for gold. Copper too, in the interior. Iron? Not so much. I looked online, and I could find only one iron mine in British Columbia. The geologic environment's not very good for it. If we were talking about the area around the Great Lakes, I'd be more of a believer, because there's a lot of iron in the ground around there. Oddly, they didn't work iron there.

Anyway, iron is comparatively rare in the PNW.

2. We're missing all the other infrastructure that goes with iron working and smelting. The most important is that you can't do it in a wood fire. You need a forge, which needs charcoal, to produce the heat required to smelt iron (or even to work it).

Such heat is good for other things, like ceramics and high quality pottery, and these often come first in the archeological record.

Did the PNW people even use pottery? I don't think so. I'm also pretty sure they didn't know how to make charcoal either.

Since the infrastructure to work iron is missing and the ore is rare, I'm pretty sure they weren't making iron pieces prior to contact. Again, they may have obtained bits of meteorite and ground them into useful shapes, but that's a different kind of iron use.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fearn,
This is what happens when I try to be laconic hence my usual Tolstoyean ramblings. What I actually meant was that the Tlingit were somewhat skilled metalworkers pre-contact, and that they had learned to work iron, having expounded on thier skills with copper. I did not mean that there were smelters and forges, nor were these areas any type of Native American 'Birmingham'. My mention of Chinese and Siberians implied that the metalwork skills were learned from these peoples, which is not correct. I found more accurate detail in "The Tlingit Indians" by George Thornton Emmons, annotated by Frederica de Luna, 1991, pp.187-89);
"...while iron ore is found in Alaska, the natives had no means of reducing the ore to precious metal. It would seem that before the coming of trade vessels toward the close of the 18th century, the coast natives had already procured small bits of manufactured iron, either from wreckage or from inland southern trade from Mexico, and knew its use. From thier knowledge of copper they soon learned to work it into weapons, tools and ornaments, and almost invariably followed the original forms, as may be observed in thier manufactured spear heads, adzes, knives etc which are exact replicas of the stone implements".

Apparantly Emmons' work was published as paper #70 for the American Museum of Natural History at earlier date, and this reference is republished and annotated by DeLuna.

It would appear they did have charcoal as Emmons continues, "..in working steel and iron, they learned to soften it by heating it with charcoal, enabling them to work it more easily, and then bring the temper back by plunging it into a bath of oil and water".

It appears that iron nails, fittings etc. from wrecked ships' driftwood which was carried to these shores by the Japanese current had presented the opportunity to experience this metal to the natives, already well skilled in copperworking. Learning to work the metal gave them the basic knowledge which was expanded with the arrival of trade ships later in the 18th century. It has been suggested that ironworkers may have been among survivors of these wrecks which included Russian, Japanese, and even Spanish ships from as early as 1745.

I am always amazed at the vast distances covered in trade networking, which was well established far into prehistoric times, and how these kinds of primitive technology were passed to regions so remarkably faraway. While the Tlingit did not have the means to produce iron or steel, they did have the skills to develop working it quite well, which made iron one of the most desired commodities of trade sought by them.

All the best,
Jim

[fearn]

Thanks Jim,

Personally, I suspect that they learned the technology of ironworking after contact, since making charcoal and tempering with oil and water sounds quite colonial/European.

As for where they got their first iron bits, that coast was explored from the 16th Century on (see Drake, for example), so it's unclear when the metal was originally transferred.

Best,

F

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Fearn,
It does seem like these processes are more connected to European technological procedures , but it also seems strange that we are considering post-contact in such a modern time. While these tribes were indeed remote and in regions sparsely populated even this late in the 18th century, it would be hard to believe that some contact exposing them to these details in ironworking did not occur incidentally at times before the arrival of traders.
The fact that these pieces of ships carrying bits of iron were close enough to leave wreckage drifting to shore suggests that earlier contact may have been possible. There was some exploration earlier of course, so some of the material indeed could have been found in remains in limited case.

While considering that such piecemeal acquisition of iron supply to work into these items seems stretching things, these weapons and tools were being made for personal use, not export, so even limited volume of the material would support the equally limited production.

The thing for sure is that these Tlingit artisans crafted daggers that are quality and elegant craftsmanship to be admired, and it is fascinating that they were able to master the working of these metals in such a relatively short time frame.

All the best,
Jim