African (?) knife

Yvain · 12th January 2022, 09:57 AM

Hi Detlef,

While the origin of the knife itself is still somewhat mysterious, I'm pretty sure the sheath is African.

In addition to the general look of it, the belt loops and their fastening are typically African (for example : https://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explore...-gaine/page/6/) as well as the stitching and type of leather used.

I might add that I picked this knife from a lot of North-West African, see picture attached.

kronckew · 12th January 2022, 11:39 AM

Dealers frequently lump items together in groups and get descriptions and origins completely wrong. A past owner may have added the loops to a sheath meant to be shoved in behind a belt, like most South American knives. The subject knife doesn't seem to fit in the group of knives in the last post.

Sajen · 12th January 2022, 06:04 PM

Hi Yvain,

Possible, you have it in hand!

It could be that the knife right from the one in question is a Faca de Ponta as well but I need to see the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

Yvain · 12th January 2022, 08:47 PM

Well, while searching for similar sheaths to make some comparisons, I did found something very interesting, namely the first picture below. Sadly, I wasn't able to find its source or anymore information about it besides the file name ("mandingo short sword old african dagger antique knife"), but I think this is still a very interesting find for several reasons.

First, and even without seeing the blade, it is a way closer match to my knife than any faca de ponta I've seen before : the handle is very similar in shape, seems to be entirely made out of bronze/brass, and with the same central turned, dark wood insert ; at first I even thought it was an old picture of my knife before noticing some slight differences. Second very interesting point : the sheath, which is also in a very distinctive african fashion, similar to what can be seen on some Mandingo/Malian knives.

It's not much, but it is definitely adding weight to Tim Simmons theory, and I would love if he could tell me more about it.

Kronckew :

This lot was sold by a private seller, not a dealer, and considering the comparable state of all of the knives, I'm led to believe that the lot wasn't created yesterday, but I might be wrong. Regarding the sheath, I don't think the loops were added later : the leather is similar to what was used on the rest of the sheath and shows similar wear, it is also a very common fastening method on african knives (see examples below) ; also, the embroidered motives made out of thin leather strips reminds me of what can be found on some Mandingo knives sheaths.

Detlef :

I also have a picture with the knives out of their sheaths, but I don't think the knife to the right of mine is a faca de ponta.

Anyway, thanks a lot to all of you for your help and suggestions, this is very interesting !

drac2k · 13th January 2022, 05:10 AM

Hello Yvain,
The knife that you referenced belongs to me and is almost an exact match, except mine, is larger, almost a sword. The craftsmanship is excellent, and the scabbard is almost identical except that it doesn't have the loops, however, this could be due to the poor condition of my sheath and they may have fallen off. The scabbard is leather, with a burlap-type cloth insert as is yours; there isn't any evidence that it had a wooden lining.
The pommel has a minaret tower look to it which would indicate its Islamic influence and since the Mandingo People are 99% Muslim, this certainly wouldn't detract from its attribution to these people.
I found this weapon to be well made, sturdy and I would guess a very efficient fighting knife.

Sajen · 13th January 2022, 06:15 AM

Yvain,

The knife is a Chinese dagger, often called pirate dagger.

Yvain · 13th January 2022, 08:41 AM

Wow that's amazing Drac2k!

I didn't expect the actual owner of it to show up! Do you happen to have better pictures of it, and would you mind sharing them here? Do you have any additional information about its provenance?

Ren Ren · 13th January 2022, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yvain,

The knife is a Chinese dagger, often called pirate dagger.

I agree, this is a pirate dagger from the Vietnam-China border. The Chinese attribute these items to the Zhuang people, and the Vietnamese to the Nung people.

12th January 2022, 09:57 AM	#1
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 173	Hi Detlef, While the origin of the knife itself is still somewhat mysterious, I'm pretty sure the sheath is African. In addition to the general look of it, the belt loops and their fastening are typically African (for example : https://www.quaibranly.fr/fr/explore...-gaine/page/6/) as well as the stitching and type of leather used. I might add that I picked this knife from a lot of North-West African, see picture attached. Attached Images

12th January 2022, 08:47 PM	#4
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 173	Well, while searching for similar sheaths to make some comparisons, I did found something very interesting, namely the first picture below. Sadly, I wasn't able to find its source or anymore information about it besides the file name ("mandingo short sword old african dagger antique knife"), but I think this is still a very interesting find for several reasons. First, and even without seeing the blade, it is a way closer match to my knife than any faca de ponta I've seen before : the handle is very similar in shape, seems to be entirely made out of bronze/brass, and with the same central turned, dark wood insert ; at first I even thought it was an old picture of my knife before noticing some slight differences. Second very interesting point : the sheath, which is also in a very distinctive african fashion, similar to what can be seen on some Mandingo/Malian knives. It's not much, but it is definitely adding weight to Tim Simmons theory, and I would love if he could tell me more about it. Kronckew : This lot was sold by a private seller, not a dealer, and considering the comparable state of all of the knives, I'm led to believe that the lot wasn't created yesterday, but I might be wrong. Regarding the sheath, I don't think the loops were added later : the leather is similar to what was used on the rest of the sheath and shows similar wear, it is also a very common fastening method on african knives (see examples below) ; also, the embroidered motives made out of thin leather strips reminds me of what can be found on some Mandingo knives sheaths. Detlef : I also have a picture with the knives out of their sheaths, but I don't think the knife to the right of mine is a faca de ponta. Anyway, thanks a lot to all of you for your help and suggestions, this is very interesting ! Attached Images

13th January 2022, 06:15 AM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,563	Yvain, The knife is a Chinese dagger, often called pirate dagger. Attached Images

12th January 2022, 11:39 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	Dealers frequently lump items together in groups and get descriptions and origins completely wrong. A past owner may have added the loops to a sheath meant to be shoved in behind a belt, like most South American knives. The subject knife doesn't seem to fit in the group of knives in the last post.

12th January 2022, 06:04 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,563	Hi Yvain, Possible, you have it in hand! It could be that the knife right from the one in question is a Faca de Ponta as well but I need to see the blade. Regards, Detlef

13th January 2022, 05:10 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,184	Hello Yvain, The knife that you referenced belongs to me and is almost an exact match, except mine, is larger, almost a sword. The craftsmanship is excellent, and the scabbard is almost identical except that it doesn't have the loops, however, this could be due to the poor condition of my sheath and they may have fallen off. The scabbard is leather, with a burlap-type cloth insert as is yours; there isn't any evidence that it had a wooden lining. The pommel has a minaret tower look to it which would indicate its Islamic influence and since the Mandingo People are 99% Muslim, this certainly wouldn't detract from its attribution to these people. I found this weapon to be well made, sturdy and I would guess a very efficient fighting knife.

13th January 2022, 08:41 AM	#7
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 173	Wow that's amazing Drac2k! I didn't expect the actual owner of it to show up! Do you happen to have better pictures of it, and would you mind sharing them here? Do you have any additional information about its provenance?