Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2017, 07:38 PM

Guys, this is a wonderful discussion! and the research and entries are incredible. These conundrums have been mulled over for well over a century and a half, and there have been so many misconceptions and wrongly placed notions. As I have mentioned, I have tried to get further into the Hounslow, Hollow Blade and Shotley mysteries many times over at least 40 years.
Each time the material (which was a struggle to find before computers and the web) was so conflicting and tangled I ended up setting it aside. It is amazing to go at it again with super sleuths!!

It seems to me that the tangled web of German sword makers in England is being brought to light here in an almost forensic way as we gather and share evidence for evaluation.

Here is the KEY POINT about forum discussions.....it is never about who is right or wrong, but always about finding the right or best answers.

At this point it appears that German smiths were indeed in England from even the Tudor period, and that Charles I did bring numbers of them into England as early as the 1620s where they formed the enterprise known as Hounslow sword makers. While the earlier examples were marked with makers names and Hounslow, the practice tailed off later. The swords continued being produced it seems even after the English Civil wars however the industry there had been disrupted as some of the smiths followed the King to his locations in Oxford and London.

We know that the Royalists were well supplied with swords and blades from those locations as well as profoundly from mills in Birmingham. Meanwhile, Hounslow had become a Parliamentary stronghold and their supplier.

After the Civil Wars it seems Hounslow slipped into disrepair and by 1672 a mere shadow of its early glory, though apparently still producing in degree.
In a sense, it seems that the Hounslow phenomenon actually transcended into the Shotley Bridge one, and via the mysterious anomaly known as the Hollow Sword Blade Co. This entity was to fashion the now popular type of blades for rapiers which had become popular in France for rapiers and small swords which was triangular in section. It was termed 'hollow' for the three faces which were in effect hollowed out or fluted (far from the nonsense of misguided persons who thought the blade was really hollow to contain mercury!!? ).

This took place around 1685, and while many of the Germans had gone back to Solingen decades before, many had remained in the trade in different locations, so effectively became part of the Shotley Bridge circumstance. In this venture, it appears that the Hollow Blade entity became more of a financial venture (actually operating as a bank) with the production of blades more in line with producing hangers and other blades, but not of these hollow type (as far as is known).

The confusion in all of this is that some of the Germans had Anglicized their names so we are not sure which are individual persons or duplicates in the records. We do know that there were numbers of blades made in Shotley which became well known on hangers and often even munitions grade swords which were marked and even with the famed running wolf device.
This was not as surmised, a guild mark or scornfully placed symbol toward Solingen, but a mark the German makers regarded proudly as a quality device which had been in long standing from early times in Passau.

It does appear that 'hollow blades' were being brought into England and refinished in Shotley Bridge and that Herman Mohll, one of the key figures in these enterprises, was arrested with bundles of swords being brought to Newcastle for Shotley on a Dutch ship in 1703. Some of these were listed as hangers, but the other bundles not described.

Whatever the case, it does seem that even though the Shotley enterprise was closed in 1703, Mohll reopened it in 1716 (but died that year as well), and his son took over, but in 1724 or at some point it was sold to the Oley's.
Here is the confusion on the Oley's, who in some cases are claimed to be the ones who went to Birmingham to be the progenitors of the firm which became MOLE (later bought by Wilkinsons in 1870s).

While Shotley Bridge seems to have existed through the 18th century and into the 19th, it is not listed among sword making records anywhere after about 1703.

Curiously, the Birmingham smith Samuel Harvey used occasionally, the Running Wolf device with his initials (c.1740s-50s) but whether this had anything to do with Shotley other than commemorative perhaps, is unknown.

My guess is that Shotley remained in place more in terms of a cutlery producer later in the 18th century and into the 19th, when Sheffield consumed that part of the business.

The Shotley blades of late 17th into beginning of 17th so marked were refurbished and passed on as heirlooms and highly regarded in many officers swords and civilian swords through the 18th century. This has given the impression that the Shotley sword making continued, while it was the blades which carried on.

urbanspaceman · 24th September 2017, 09:56 PM

Hello Folks. It appears you have been at SB Ibrahiim; I began researching there about a dozen years ago and then again just last week, it is remarkable just how advanced is the gentrification of the place, often at the expense of heritage unfortunately; there is nothing to be learned from visiting the place now.
It was Richard Bezdek who discovered the earlier start at SB (i.e.1685 not 1687) but I think we can be certain no-one else was making swords with a running fox or wolf over here before that, as Ibrahiim so succinctly detailed in a post on a much earlier thread, 'it was never used at Hounslow'. I suppose it is just possible it was used at Greenwich, that I don't know – does anyone? Either way, it certainly wasn't used at SB in 1596.
With further regard to the use of the fox: Samuel Harvey commandeered the image of the fox to bestow prestige and quality on his blades. No doubt the dreadful reputation of Birmingham blades, back when he was starting out, persuaded him to purloin it. He always had initials in the outline however, so there's no doubt they are not SB blades; although a lot of reputable dealers in this country will tell you they are. I have even seen the H for Harvey altered to look like a B (not hard is it?).
Oleys in later years (1750s onwards) were using a distinctly singular fox impression: an auction last year sold just such a blade on behalf of an ex. SB resident who had first-hand knowledge of its provenance and indicated it was made by the Oleys.
[IMG]
I've found so much detail that is pertinent that I really don't think I can post it all, but maybe I can add what I've found that is missing so far - such as Bertrams and Vintings. We imported a lot of Germans to develop our lead and copper mining up here in Northern England (and probably everywhere else I suspect) in the 1500s (there was a lead mine at Ryton Village which is just minutes from SB) so I suspect Vintings may well be descended from those early settlers. Equally, the Bertrams name was in the area long before SB was developed and as a blast-furnace expert, and owner, he may well have been involved in the pre-development of the village, anticipating the sword-makers' arrivals. We had a cutler here in Newcastle also – Thomas Carnforth – who was closely involved with Mohll (testified on his behalf during Mohll's imprisonment) and was equally certainly involved with Johannes Dell (John Bell) in setting up the syndicate, as he definitely needed a ready supply of 'hollow blades'.
With regard to the yearly output of the village: I am sure they made suitable swords for the Jacobites back in 1688 and onwards; just as I am certain they made them for Parliament. I think they simply made swords for a living and did not care where they went or who used them. Let's face it: after enduring the Thirty Years War, they would definitely want to keep their heads down and get on with their work. As we move along in time, outside factors impacted to a greater and a lesser degree, but so long as the mill-wheel kept turning they kept eating.
In 1690, it was stated by Sir Stephen Evance in a petition for a royal charter that the Germans were to be using their mills and engines expressly to produce hollow blades:
Our said subjects, at their great charge and management, have imported from foreign parts, divers persons, who have exercised in their own country the said art of making hollow sword blades by the use of certain newly invented instruments, engines and mills and by the contrivance of our said subjects, have prevailed upon them to expose themselves, to the hazard of their lives to impart to our said subjects their art and mystery. I am certain they had absolutely no intention of disclosing any secrets to us Brits.
Also in 1690, from an advertisement run for a week in the London Gazette:
Whereas great industry hath been used in erecting a manufacture for hollow sword blades at Newcastle [Shotley Bridge] by several able workmen brought from Germany, which now being brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle [set up] a warehouse at Mr Isaac Hadley’s, at the [sign of the] Five Bells; New Street, near Shoe Lane [in London] whereas callers can be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable prices.
Thirteen years later this appeared:
The Hollow Sword Blade company has lately received a considerable quantity of sword blades made at their mills at Shotley Bridge near Newcastle upon Tyne. They are now on sale at their warehouse in New St. near Fetter Lane.
tbc

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2017, 12:07 PM

Salaams urbanspaceman ~ No never been near the place. Not certain I agree with your statement on the area since most of Industrial North East England was demolished ...whereas at Shotley Bridge... which actually never had a coal mine did have the few industrial plants like the papermaking factory and the sword makers wiped off the record... largely the rest of it including the grand Victorian houses around the Spa and the quaint shop fronts and general structure of the little village centre has remained intact...and being restored I see...It looks like the river may have done for the rear end of the Mill near the bridge and the stone wheel may have been relocated by the raging waters in a great flood about 10 years ago..

A number of factors appear on the subject of that grinding wheel said to have been near the mill and a few feet from the waters edge at Shotley bridge. My recent post also mentions this and we know the concept of converting flour mills to sword mills already viz;..."The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'. Was this also done at Shotley Bridge...?

I think what we need to place are examples of so called Shotley Bridge Swords with a possible time line to see where these weapons fit into a chronological sequence...The blade I placed with SHOTLEY clearly placed on the blade seems to be real HOWEVER THE WRITE UP SAYS CIRCA 1740 WHICH MEANS IT ISNT DATED ON THE BLADE BUT ESTIMATED ONLY..

I do not write off intrigue and skulduggery in the matter of the Jacobite situation. It may be remembered that this region was Border Reiver territory and the route to Scotland was over that bridge...It is quite possible that swords destined for the Jacobite cause could have gone through Reiver hands to Scottish beneficiaries along this route.

To date I have never seen a three edged sword stamped or said to be from Shotley Bridge.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2017, 12:53 PM

I would like to copy in here the following~

[Bhttps://oldswords.com/articles/The%2...words-v1i4.pdf [/B]

where at notes on blades and collecting Shotley Bridge is named as a provider of basket hilts !!

Samuel Harvey needs to be observed to see where he fits into this ever revolving equation and I note he signed basket hilts seen at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0maker&f=false page 36 where two cases are recorded for research although many more exist. Harveys work becomes slightly tangled with the Shotley factory and here it can be more clearly separated out...

In addition Samuel Harvey is noted with the SH ... stamp. I have also noted HAR...with VEY under in a square stamp format below.. and Harvey on various different parts of the weapon. Also below the first English cuphilt by Harvey...
The H in some weapons has been changed as you note earlier to a B in a forlorn attempt to try to show Shotley Bridge as the centre of origin..This is usually done inside the running fox...There is no such blademark as SB. Most Harvey examples shown are from his factory in Birmingham.

See Below.

1. It is clear that there is a difference between the running wolf of Solingen and the running fox with its bushy tail.
2. Often as you note the SH (Samuel Harvey) is altered to read SB ..
3. I suspect the sword with roughly applied SHOTLEY in capitals is a Solingen blade with lettering added later ... the wolf perhaps genuine. This could be an heirloom sword.
4. A probable Solingen sword appears with the talimanic 1414 Date and running wolf.

urbanspaceman · 25th September 2017, 01:26 PM

Hello Ibrahiim. I thought it unlikely you would venture to the depths of the industrial North; and, as I said, nothing is to be learned from visiting the place (unless you want to buy the Methodist Church which I noticed is for sale £245k... just joking).
Here are some photos from my local museum and from the Royal Armouries at Leeds.
[IMG]

urbanspaceman · 25th September 2017, 01:51 PM

ps
Speaking of Reivers Ibrahiim: my mother's side of the family are Grahams, the most notorious of them all. We were generally over on the west side (Cumberland) unless we were stealing cattle and sheep, then we might pop over to Newcastle for the night.
It is most vexing, the lack of SB tri-form blades; all the evidence points to there being an abundance yet not a single example seems to have surfaced.
Are there many early English-made short-swords with Colichmarde or triangular blades? I've just bought a pretty mid 1800s French officer's sword made at Klingenthal, simply so I have an example of what it was all about. I would have much preferred - at least - an English example but I haven't seen anything accessible to date.
[IMG]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th September 2017, 02:55 PM

What is notable so far is the absence of any Shotley Bridge hollow ground blades. Nonsense to one side about the story of mercury filled blades naturally a joke in the trade at the time... but I have also heard of the term applied to the cutting edge as hollow grinding... To some extent that may be partly true but the Hollow Ground blade or Colichemarde form is much more interesting than simply that. Colichemarde were broader toward the throat with about 12 inches of quite thick broad blade sweeping to a narrower long blade of three edges; Triangular in cross section leading to a sharp point.

If there are none from Shotley Bridge could it mean that they either produced so few by hand (Solingen it is said churned these out with a grinding machine) or that Shotley, without the machine, gave up trying to compete? ...but the net effect is I am unable to source a single Hollow Blade of this type from there..

According to Wiki Quote"The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, due to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime. The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration.

The widespread misapprehension that the colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections.

This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon. "Unquote.

see Hollow-Ground or "Colichemarde" Blades at https://www.militariahub.com/the-his...ritish-swords/

and http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...-xviii-th.html

See below ~Hollow Ground Colichemarde form...

urbanspaceman · 25th September 2017, 05:45 PM

I know I am wandering from the principle point of the thread here but, just briefly, to follow up on Ibrahiim's post (thank-you Sir) I have heard it said that the Colichemarde gave the ability to fend-off blows from the heavier blades such as rapiers and trans' rapiers due to its reinforced upper section, but that once rapiers left the duelling business then the constant gradual taper became the go-to blade for the de rigueur gentleman about town.
The French officer's sword photos I posted earlier is the style to which I refer.

urbanspaceman · 25th September 2017, 06:00 PM

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2017, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside):
"An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

Through the entire century the argument between cut and thrust went on, and invariably the effort was for a sword blade which could deliver both effectively. The first British regulation sword was the M1796 light cavalry sabre, which was considered most effective at cuts resulting in ghastly wounds, and which the French considered barbaric. However in any cases they were survivable, where the thrust favored by the French was virtually always fatal, and in usually a long very painful way.

The heavy, chopping blades of the M1796 were ultimately replaced by the M1821 cavalry sabre with a 'spear' point' which could be used in a thrust with the sword held in high tierce, then used in slashing cuts as well.
There were of course issues in production, design and as always blade quality, which had plagued English sword making for the previous centuries.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2017, 04:34 AM

Salaams Jim, It is certainly an interesting discussion and again your excellent pointers are very much appreciated.
The entire region in the days of the German immigrant sword makers was a hotbed of intrigue~ The whole business of the Jacobite rebellion was in ferment and it is here I wish to start. What degree of collusion was there with the sword-makers of Shotley Bridge? After Culloden many fighters from the Scottish side ran to the wilds of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland where they formed an entirely separate although probably linked clan organisation known as The Moss Troopers who stole and robbed ...and were often caught and executed! It may be noted that Lord Derwentwater was tried and found guilty and executed for being a supporter of the Jacobite cause. Indeed such was the fervor and hatred for these brigands that the English set up a formidable military force at Newcastle and were unrelenting in tracking down sympathizers that many people caved in to government demands and openly expressed their government support. Mohll was caught with a load of swords and placed in jail only to harness important support and so he was released. It is said that there was some religious implication in pushing the Germans to elope with their sword secrets ...That would make the reasons Political and Religious ...a powerful enough combination linked to the obviously difficult situation in Solingen with the 30 year and later fighting taking place. That coupled with the intent in England to raise their game as far as sword making quality was concerned would probably suffice as to the reasons why they went.

If I may jump to the use of kilns at Shotley Bridge .. They were built certainly one at the south end of the Bridge and others further up river probably at the Forge and further up river a few miles on to Alansford . There is a even street in Shotley Bridge called Kiln Street. Somewhere I noted that materials were inported from Sweden ...ore?... for these kilns? No mines are reported in Shotley Bridge; coal or iron ore. There was plenty of wood... The swordmakers house stood in Wood Street..and Derwent meant oak valley. There was abundant Beech forest in the area. The water was excellent for tempering steel and for water wheel power. It is understood that the sandstone grit on the riverbed was ideal for sharpening and grinding blades.

In a further leap~ I question the Colichimarde situation...and the swords imported but initially confiscated when Mohl got arrested. If they were from Solingen they would surely have been stamped...My question being when was a sword stamped? There were a lot of these 1400 apparently but no definite detail of what sort of blades...nevertheless they would have been stamped I suspect...Solingen ! In all the examples seen so far ... and as far as I can see... No Colichimarde examples exist out of Shotley Bridge because they never had a machine capable of such grinding. Although this may not have been the only reason for its demise as other swords were being used...particularly in the Military ...It may have been a factor and why specialists were dispersed either back to Germany or to other English factories like Birmingham.

Post 28 sets another conundrum here... How do swords stamped with the Solingen mark of the running wolf appear with SHOTLEY BRIDGE stamped down the fullers? Are these examples of blades fetched by Mohl already with the wolf stamp or did shotley swordmakers place these ...It may mean they used both fox and wolf... but it seems odd. It is in fact the case that the hilts were often wire adorned in what is described at;

https://oldswords.com/articles/Smal...tibles-v1i1.pdf

which is a must read for this style.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th September 2017, 05:13 AM

Here is a half basket... as I begin to examine Scottish Basket hilts and since The Crown and Crossed Swords owned by the Swordmakers sports two giant swords as their Hotel Sign under a Crown..

https://www.yorkmuseumstrust.org.uk/...RvcnkmRk49JTJB

Also below for library purposes sword blade marks.

Raf · 12th October 2017, 09:59 AM

I dont know whether this of interest but I bought this sad little sword the other day. The blade definitely qualifies as hollow ground but isnt Colichemarde type.

Mel H · 12th October 2017, 10:40 AM

In over fifty years of collecting I can safely say that I've seen very few available swords with the Shotley Bridge name on the blade, most of which were straight blades. The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp.
It seems to be clear that large quantities of blades were produced, given the length time that the industry was there, I've always assumed that many were produced without markings and subsequently may be more common than we think but we'll probably never know.
I remember being told in my earlier collecting days about the mercury filled hollow blades and thinking at the time that it was all a something of a fable, as my knowledge increased I came to the conclusion that the term was a description of the popular three sided 'smallsword' blade of the time.
I have to add that, as a collector of smallswords, I have examined a large selection of hollow blades over the years and never seen or heard of one with any indication of being made at SB, my personal view is that none were made there.
Mel.

24th September 2017, 09:56 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	cabbages and kings Hello Folks. It appears you have been at SB Ibrahiim; I began researching there about a dozen years ago and then again just last week, it is remarkable just how advanced is the gentrification of the place, often at the expense of heritage unfortunately; there is nothing to be learned from visiting the place now. It was Richard Bezdek who discovered the earlier start at SB (i.e.1685 not 1687) but I think we can be certain no-one else was making swords with a running fox or wolf over here before that, as Ibrahiim so succinctly detailed in a post on a much earlier thread, 'it was never used at Hounslow'. I suppose it is just possible it was used at Greenwich, that I don't know – does anyone? Either way, it certainly wasn't used at SB in 1596. With further regard to the use of the fox: Samuel Harvey commandeered the image of the fox to bestow prestige and quality on his blades. No doubt the dreadful reputation of Birmingham blades, back when he was starting out, persuaded him to purloin it. He always had initials in the outline however, so there's no doubt they are not SB blades; although a lot of reputable dealers in this country will tell you they are. I have even seen the H for Harvey altered to look like a B (not hard is it?). Oleys in later years (1750s onwards) were using a distinctly singular fox impression: an auction last year sold just such a blade on behalf of an ex. SB resident who had first-hand knowledge of its provenance and indicated it was made by the Oleys. [IMG] I've found so much detail that is pertinent that I really don't think I can post it all, but maybe I can add what I've found that is missing so far - such as Bertrams and Vintings. We imported a lot of Germans to develop our lead and copper mining up here in Northern England (and probably everywhere else I suspect) in the 1500s (there was a lead mine at Ryton Village which is just minutes from SB) so I suspect Vintings may well be descended from those early settlers. Equally, the Bertrams name was in the area long before SB was developed and as a blast-furnace expert, and owner, he may well have been involved in the pre-development of the village, anticipating the sword-makers' arrivals. We had a cutler here in Newcastle also – Thomas Carnforth – who was closely involved with Mohll (testified on his behalf during Mohll's imprisonment) and was equally certainly involved with Johannes Dell (John Bell) in setting up the syndicate, as he definitely needed a ready supply of 'hollow blades'. With regard to the yearly output of the village: I am sure they made suitable swords for the Jacobites back in 1688 and onwards; just as I am certain they made them for Parliament. I think they simply made swords for a living and did not care where they went or who used them. Let's face it: after enduring the Thirty Years War, they would definitely want to keep their heads down and get on with their work. As we move along in time, outside factors impacted to a greater and a lesser degree, but so long as the mill-wheel kept turning they kept eating. In 1690, it was stated by Sir Stephen Evance in a petition for a royal charter that the Germans were to be using their mills and engines expressly to produce hollow blades: Our said subjects, at their great charge and management, have imported from foreign parts, divers persons, who have exercised in their own country the said art of making hollow sword blades by the use of certain newly invented instruments, engines and mills and by the contrivance of our said subjects, have prevailed upon them to expose themselves, to the hazard of their lives to impart to our said subjects their art and mystery. I am certain they had absolutely no intention of disclosing any secrets to us Brits. Also in 1690, from an advertisement run for a week in the London Gazette: Whereas great industry hath been used in erecting a manufacture for hollow sword blades at Newcastle [Shotley Bridge] by several able workmen brought from Germany, which now being brought to perfection, the undertakers thereof have thought fit to settle [set up] a warehouse at Mr Isaac Hadley’s, at the [sign of the] Five Bells; New Street, near Shoe Lane [in London] whereas callers can be furnished with all sorts of sword blades at reasonable prices. Thirteen years later this appeared: The Hollow Sword Blade company has lately received a considerable quantity of sword blades made at their mills at Shotley Bridge near Newcastle upon Tyne. They are now on sale at their warehouse in New St. near Fetter Lane. tbc Attached Images

25th September 2017, 12:53 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I would like to copy in here the following~ [Bhttps://oldswords.com/articles/The%2...words-v1i4.pdf [/B] where at notes on blades and collecting Shotley Bridge is named as a provider of basket hilts !! Samuel Harvey needs to be observed to see where he fits into this ever revolving equation and I note he signed basket hilts seen at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0maker&f=false page 36 where two cases are recorded for research although many more exist. Harveys work becomes slightly tangled with the Shotley factory and here it can be more clearly separated out... In addition Samuel Harvey is noted with the SH ... stamp. I have also noted HAR...with VEY under in a square stamp format below.. and Harvey on various different parts of the weapon. Also below the first English cuphilt by Harvey... The H in some weapons has been changed as you note earlier to a B in a forlorn attempt to try to show Shotley Bridge as the centre of origin..This is usually done inside the running fox...There is no such blademark as SB. Most Harvey examples shown are from his factory in Birmingham. See Below. 1. It is clear that there is a difference between the running wolf of Solingen and the running fox with its bushy tail. 2. Often as you note the SH (Samuel Harvey) is altered to read SB .. 3. I suspect the sword with roughly applied SHOTLEY in capitals is a Solingen blade with lettering added later ... the wolf perhaps genuine. This could be an heirloom sword. 4. A probable Solingen sword appears with the talimanic 1414 Date and running wolf. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th September 2017 at 02:13 PM.

25th September 2017, 01:26 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	photos Hello Ibrahiim. I thought it unlikely you would venture to the depths of the industrial North; and, as I said, nothing is to be learned from visiting the place (unless you want to buy the Methodist Church which I noticed is for sale £245k... just joking). Here are some photos from my local museum and from the Royal Armouries at Leeds. [IMG] Attached Images

25th September 2017, 01:51 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Reivers ps Speaking of Reivers Ibrahiim: my mother's side of the family are Grahams, the most notorious of them all. We were generally over on the west side (Cumberland) unless we were stealing cattle and sheep, then we might pop over to Newcastle for the night. It is most vexing, the lack of SB tri-form blades; all the evidence points to there being an abundance yet not a single example seems to have surfaced. Are there many early English-made short-swords with Colichmarde or triangular blades? I've just bought a pretty mid 1800s French officer's sword made at Klingenthal, simply so I have an example of what it was all about. I would have much preferred - at least - an English example but I haven't seen anything accessible to date. [IMG] Attached Images

25th September 2017, 02:55 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Colichemarde Form. The Hollow Ground Blade What is notable so far is the absence of any Shotley Bridge hollow ground blades. Nonsense to one side about the story of mercury filled blades naturally a joke in the trade at the time... but I have also heard of the term applied to the cutting edge as hollow grinding... To some extent that may be partly true but the Hollow Ground blade or Colichemarde form is much more interesting than simply that. Colichemarde were broader toward the throat with about 12 inches of quite thick broad blade sweeping to a narrower long blade of three edges; Triangular in cross section leading to a sharp point. If there are none from Shotley Bridge could it mean that they either produced so few by hand (Solingen it is said churned these out with a grinding machine) or that Shotley, without the machine, gave up trying to compete? ...but the net effect is I am unable to source a single Hollow Blade of this type from there.. According to Wiki Quote"The Colichemarde blade configuration is widely thought to have been an invention of Graf von Königsmark, due to the similarity in pronunciation of their names. However, the first blades of this type date from before the Count's lifetime. The colichemarde first appeared about 1680 and was popular during the next 40 years at the royal European courts. It was especially popular with the officers of the French and Indian War period. George Washington was presented with one during his inauguration. The widespread misapprehension that the colichemarde quickly ceased to be produced after 1720 dates to the opinion given by Sir Richard Burton in his "The Book of the Sword" dating to 1884. However, many securely dated colichemarde swords from as late as the 1770s can be found in collections. This sword appeared at about the same time as the foil. However the foil was created for practicing fencing at court, while the colichemarde was created for dueling. It made frequent appearances in the duels of New Orleans. A descendant of the colichemarde is the épée, a modern fencing weapon. "Unquote. see Hollow-Ground or "Colichemarde" Blades at https://www.militariahub.com/the-his...ritish-swords/ and http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...-xviii-th.html See below ~Hollow Ground Colichemarde form... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th September 2017 at 04:17 PM.

24th September 2017, 07:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Guys, this is a wonderful discussion! and the research and entries are incredible. These conundrums have been mulled over for well over a century and a half, and there have been so many misconceptions and wrongly placed notions. As I have mentioned, I have tried to get further into the Hounslow, Hollow Blade and Shotley mysteries many times over at least 40 years. Each time the material (which was a struggle to find before computers and the web) was so conflicting and tangled I ended up setting it aside. It is amazing to go at it again with super sleuths!! It seems to me that the tangled web of German sword makers in England is being brought to light here in an almost forensic way as we gather and share evidence for evaluation. Here is the KEY POINT about forum discussions.....it is never about who is right or wrong, but always about finding the right or best answers. At this point it appears that German smiths were indeed in England from even the Tudor period, and that Charles I did bring numbers of them into England as early as the 1620s where they formed the enterprise known as Hounslow sword makers. While the earlier examples were marked with makers names and Hounslow, the practice tailed off later. The swords continued being produced it seems even after the English Civil wars however the industry there had been disrupted as some of the smiths followed the King to his locations in Oxford and London. We know that the Royalists were well supplied with swords and blades from those locations as well as profoundly from mills in Birmingham. Meanwhile, Hounslow had become a Parliamentary stronghold and their supplier. After the Civil Wars it seems Hounslow slipped into disrepair and by 1672 a mere shadow of its early glory, though apparently still producing in degree. In a sense, it seems that the Hounslow phenomenon actually transcended into the Shotley Bridge one, and via the mysterious anomaly known as the Hollow Sword Blade Co. This entity was to fashion the now popular type of blades for rapiers which had become popular in France for rapiers and small swords which was triangular in section. It was termed 'hollow' for the three faces which were in effect hollowed out or fluted (far from the nonsense of misguided persons who thought the blade was really hollow to contain mercury!!? ). This took place around 1685, and while many of the Germans had gone back to Solingen decades before, many had remained in the trade in different locations, so effectively became part of the Shotley Bridge circumstance. In this venture, it appears that the Hollow Blade entity became more of a financial venture (actually operating as a bank) with the production of blades more in line with producing hangers and other blades, but not of these hollow type (as far as is known). The confusion in all of this is that some of the Germans had Anglicized their names so we are not sure which are individual persons or duplicates in the records. We do know that there were numbers of blades made in Shotley which became well known on hangers and often even munitions grade swords which were marked and even with the famed running wolf device. This was not as surmised, a guild mark or scornfully placed symbol toward Solingen, but a mark the German makers regarded proudly as a quality device which had been in long standing from early times in Passau. It does appear that 'hollow blades' were being brought into England and refinished in Shotley Bridge and that Herman Mohll, one of the key figures in these enterprises, was arrested with bundles of swords being brought to Newcastle for Shotley on a Dutch ship in 1703. Some of these were listed as hangers, but the other bundles not described. Whatever the case, it does seem that even though the Shotley enterprise was closed in 1703, Mohll reopened it in 1716 (but died that year as well), and his son took over, but in 1724 or at some point it was sold to the Oley's. Here is the confusion on the Oley's, who in some cases are claimed to be the ones who went to Birmingham to be the progenitors of the firm which became MOLE (later bought by Wilkinsons in 1870s). While Shotley Bridge seems to have existed through the 18th century and into the 19th, it is not listed among sword making records anywhere after about 1703. Curiously, the Birmingham smith Samuel Harvey used occasionally, the Running Wolf device with his initials (c.1740s-50s) but whether this had anything to do with Shotley other than commemorative perhaps, is unknown. My guess is that Shotley remained in place more in terms of a cutlery producer later in the 18th century and into the 19th, when Sheffield consumed that part of the business. The Shotley blades of late 17th into beginning of 17th so marked were refurbished and passed on as heirlooms and highly regarded in many officers swords and civilian swords through the 18th century. This has given the impression that the Shotley sword making continued, while it was the blades which carried on.

25th September 2017, 12:07 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams urbanspaceman ~ No never been near the place. Not certain I agree with your statement on the area since most of Industrial North East England was demolished ...whereas at Shotley Bridge... which actually never had a coal mine did have the few industrial plants like the papermaking factory and the sword makers wiped off the record... largely the rest of it including the grand Victorian houses around the Spa and the quaint shop fronts and general structure of the little village centre has remained intact...and being restored I see...It looks like the river may have done for the rear end of the Mill near the bridge and the stone wheel may have been relocated by the raging waters in a great flood about 10 years ago.. A number of factors appear on the subject of that grinding wheel said to have been near the mill and a few feet from the waters edge at Shotley bridge. My recent post also mentions this and we know the concept of converting flour mills to sword mills already viz;..."The Making of Birmingham" Robert K. Dent (1894) p. 147, notes there were 'slitting and rolling' mills in several locations, including Digbeth, which was where Robert Porter had his mill. It states he converted his corn mill into a 'blade mill'. Was this also done at Shotley Bridge...? I think what we need to place are examples of so called Shotley Bridge Swords with a possible time line to see where these weapons fit into a chronological sequence...The blade I placed with SHOTLEY clearly placed on the blade seems to be real HOWEVER THE WRITE UP SAYS CIRCA 1740 WHICH MEANS IT ISNT DATED ON THE BLADE BUT ESTIMATED ONLY.. I do not write off intrigue and skulduggery in the matter of the Jacobite situation. It may be remembered that this region was Border Reiver territory and the route to Scotland was over that bridge...It is quite possible that swords destined for the Jacobite cause could have gone through Reiver hands to Scottish beneficiaries along this route. To date I have never seen a three edged sword stamped or said to be from Shotley Bridge.

25th September 2017, 05:45 PM	#8
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Colichemarde I know I am wandering from the principle point of the thread here but, just briefly, to follow up on Ibrahiim's post (thank-you Sir) I have heard it said that the Colichemarde gave the ability to fend-off blows from the heavier blades such as rapiers and trans' rapiers due to its reinforced upper section, but that once rapiers left the duelling business then the constant gradual taper became the go-to blade for the de rigueur gentleman about town. The French officer's sword photos I posted earlier is the style to which I refer.

25th September 2017, 06:00 PM	#9
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	Cut or thrust Again, allowing the detour, I came across this statement made by Henry Wilkinson c.1850 with regard to the thrust as opposed to the cut (I have to say that surely from horse-back there is only the cut, but that aside): "An old officer of the 11th Dragoons told me that it was proverbial through all the Peninsular War, that our Dragoons who were mostly brought into the hospital with slight punctured wounds in the chest or abdomen almost invariably died. The French Dragoons on the contrary had mostly cut or incised wounds and almost all recovered."

27th September 2017, 04:34 AM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim, It is certainly an interesting discussion and again your excellent pointers are very much appreciated. The entire region in the days of the German immigrant sword makers was a hotbed of intrigue~ The whole business of the Jacobite rebellion was in ferment and it is here I wish to start. What degree of collusion was there with the sword-makers of Shotley Bridge? After Culloden many fighters from the Scottish side ran to the wilds of Durham, Northumberland and Cumberland where they formed an entirely separate although probably linked clan organisation known as The Moss Troopers who stole and robbed ...and were often caught and executed! It may be noted that Lord Derwentwater was tried and found guilty and executed for being a supporter of the Jacobite cause. Indeed such was the fervor and hatred for these brigands that the English set up a formidable military force at Newcastle and were unrelenting in tracking down sympathizers that many people caved in to government demands and openly expressed their government support. Mohll was caught with a load of swords and placed in jail only to harness important support and so he was released. It is said that there was some religious implication in pushing the Germans to elope with their sword secrets ...That would make the reasons Political and Religious ...a powerful enough combination linked to the obviously difficult situation in Solingen with the 30 year and later fighting taking place. That coupled with the intent in England to raise their game as far as sword making quality was concerned would probably suffice as to the reasons why they went. If I may jump to the use of kilns at Shotley Bridge .. They were built certainly one at the south end of the Bridge and others further up river probably at the Forge and further up river a few miles on to Alansford . There is a even street in Shotley Bridge called Kiln Street. Somewhere I noted that materials were inported from Sweden ...ore?... for these kilns? No mines are reported in Shotley Bridge; coal or iron ore. There was plenty of wood... The swordmakers house stood in Wood Street..and Derwent meant oak valley. There was abundant Beech forest in the area. The water was excellent for tempering steel and for water wheel power. It is understood that the sandstone grit on the riverbed was ideal for sharpening and grinding blades. In a further leap~ I question the Colichimarde situation...and the swords imported but initially confiscated when Mohl got arrested. If they were from Solingen they would surely have been stamped...My question being when was a sword stamped? There were a lot of these 1400 apparently but no definite detail of what sort of blades...nevertheless they would have been stamped I suspect...Solingen ! In all the examples seen so far ... and as far as I can see... No Colichimarde examples exist out of Shotley Bridge because they never had a machine capable of such grinding. Although this may not have been the only reason for its demise as other swords were being used...particularly in the Military ...It may have been a factor and why specialists were dispersed either back to Germany or to other English factories like Birmingham. Post 28 sets another conundrum here... How do swords stamped with the Solingen mark of the running wolf appear with SHOTLEY BRIDGE stamped down the fullers? Are these examples of blades fetched by Mohl already with the wolf stamp or did shotley swordmakers place these ...It may mean they used both fox and wolf... but it seems odd. It is in fact the case that the hilts were often wire adorned in what is described at; https://oldswords.com/articles/Smal...tibles-v1i1.pdf which is a must read for this style. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th September 2017 at 04:55 AM.

27th September 2017, 05:13 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Here is a half basket... as I begin to examine Scottish Basket hilts and since The Crown and Crossed Swords owned by the Swordmakers sports two giant swords as their Hotel Sign under a Crown.. https://www.yorkmuseumstrust.org.uk/...RvcnkmRk49JTJB Also below for library purposes sword blade marks. Attached Images

12th October 2017, 09:59 AM	#13
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	I dont know whether this of interest but I bought this sad little sword the other day. The blade definitely qualifies as hollow ground but isnt Colichemarde type. Attached Images

12th October 2017, 10:40 AM	#14
Mel H Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: North East England. Posts: 107	In over fifty years of collecting I can safely say that I've seen very few available swords with the Shotley Bridge name on the blade, most of which were straight blades. The more common offerings that I saw were mid 18th C. hangers with the bushy tailed fox stamp. It seems to be clear that large quantities of blades were produced, given the length time that the industry was there, I've always assumed that many were produced without markings and subsequently may be more common than we think but we'll probably never know. I remember being told in my earlier collecting days about the mercury filled hollow blades and thinking at the time that it was all a something of a fable, as my knowledge increased I came to the conclusion that the term was a description of the popular three sided 'smallsword' blade of the time. I have to add that, as a collector of smallswords, I have examined a large selection of hollow blades over the years and never seen or heard of one with any indication of being made at SB, my personal view is that none were made there. Mel.