Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th October 2022, 02:14 PM   #1
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Lightbulb Chronological listing of Polish-Lithuanian and Hungarian sabers

Hi all,

I´d like to make a little listing available here as a PDF file. It is about sabers used in the area of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Hungary. It is not about the production origins, solely their existence in a time period based on comprehensive paintings. I noticed there seem to be some misconceptions on forums and auction houses when it comes to dating these swords and talk is cheap so I decided to collect some contemporary depictions of sabers and match them as best as possible with photographs of specimen.
Also reading books about this topic I wonder sometimes why some authors date certain swords in a specific way: Turns out sometimes that authors rely on books written a hundred years ago and take what was then nothing more than a working hypothesis as pure fact. This is annoying. Since these paintings are all veryfied when it comes to their production date, it´s an elegant way of "proof" for a dating.

Please note that the age of the sabers depicted on the photos do eventually not correspond 1:1 with the depiction on those paintings because those have been used throughout many decades.
Some time gaps still remaining because of the lack of contemporary visual sources.

Best,
Patrick
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2022, 10:01 PM   #2
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Very nice! Thank you for posting this. I would like to add a few a few observations:

1 - the portret of Vlad Țepeș Drăculea III is actually one from around 1700, commissioned by the Esterhazy family. So, it really represents what the people of 1700 thought what Țepeș looked like, not what he actually looked like(see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JUPq5NEEo). As such it can't be used to prove the existance of "boot-hilt hungarian sabres at that time (1460s). Here's another portrait that makes me scratch my head: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehmed...med_IV_(2).jpg. According to this portrait, Mehmed IV (circa 1682) had a Polish-Hungarian boot-hilted sabre. What's the likelihood?

2 - Another sabre that looks like Martin Kober/Kubinyi Dániel's (1595) portrait sabre is this one https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/33998

3 - A few relevant pictures can also be found here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=10450&page=3

4 - A few more suggestions for which we know the owner and therefore the date:

Nikola Zrinsky/Zrínyi Miklós: https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html &&&&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...-zrinyi-miklos

Ferdinand II, Archduke of Austria??? (1526–1564)??? made in 1514https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/rec...ted-bib5847482 &&&& https://docplayer.hu/222752167-Tanul...-szablyak.html
From the second source:
Quote:
The replacement of the Turkish, acorn-shaped grip cap with a flat, crested cap is a Hungarian peculiarity. An illustrative example of this is the Turkish-style decorative saber - made in 1514 - which is also Tirol II. It comes from the former collection of Archduke Ferdinand, and not only the grip cap, but also the cross iron was changed to a Hungarian shape. The letters IHS can be seen on the front, while the I.F. monogram can be seen on the latter. Presumably, the saber is connected to the Hungarian king Ferdinand I (1526–1564), who received the saber from Hungarian lords on the occasion of some notable event, such as a coronation or other celebration. It was used not only for newly manufactured sabers, but also for looted or gifted Turkish weapons, where the original cap was replaced. In its development, not so much practicality as fashion may have played a role.
Bebek György: https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...-bebek-gyoergy &&&&&&&&& https://www.szadvar.hu/2021/07/bebek-gyorgy-szablyaja/

Đorđe Branković (1688?): https://oruzjeonline.com/2021/10/04/...djenog-kralja/

Thury György (1519 -1571), not a sabre, but a pallash: https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/20...ry-kardja.html &&&&&& https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thury_Gy%C3%B6rgy

There is also Gjergj Kastrioti/Skanderbeg's pallash, but it's provenance is debatable https://carolynperry.blogspot.com/20...derbeg-in.html

It seems that the fashion for sabres in the 1500s/early 1600s was that of long quillons. Just look at Bathory, Zrinsky, Bebek, Ferdinand's sabres. Even Thury's pallash has long quillons. Each quillon is roughly the same length as the handle. So most likely these ones are from the 1500s as well https://www.museumap.hu/record/-/rec...ted-bib5810577 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/284576 &&& https://skd-online-collection.skd.mu...s/Index/289065 &&& https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...zablya-szikszo &&& https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/371721/?lv=detail
Maybe this one too https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/371717/
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2022, 11:42 AM   #3
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Hey Teisani,
thanks a lot for this lot of information - I will go through it when I got the time. Also thank you for poiting out the correct date of Vlad´s depiction, guess I missed something there.
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th November 2022, 08:16 PM   #4
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

A few period depictions of 16th and early 17th century East European sabres in portraits:
Attached Images
      
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2022, 01:24 PM   #5
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

An interesting site with portraits of mostly Hungarian nobility (many of them with their sabres).
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...szazad/adattar
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th December 2022, 02:57 PM   #6
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teisani View Post
An interesting site with portraits of mostly Hungarian nobility (many of them with their sabres).
https://sites.google.com/site/hagyom...szazad/adattar
What an exceptional source! Thanks for sharing!
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hungary, ottoman, saber poland

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.