Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd November 2016, 02:44 PM   #1
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Question Sword belt hook

I had recently acquired interesting sword belt hook made of bronze, found not far from Smolensk (Russia). Now I'm trying to date it.
Were such "accessories" widespread in European armies? In what period of time?
Attached Images
   
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 07:48 AM   #2
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

any thoughts?
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 12:38 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Hi Evgeny,
Personally i had never seen such kind of device, nor i am certain how it goes. Is it to introduce the scabbard into that slot and hang the hook on the belt ... in what position ? Sorry for ignorance .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 02:58 PM   #4
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Hi Fernando!
Here are some pics (I'm not sure if it drawn correctly):
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Evgeny_K; 7th November 2016 at 04:04 PM.
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 02:59 PM   #5
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

This, if I am not mistaken, the Afghan belt with various accessories
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Evgeny_K; 7th November 2016 at 04:06 PM.
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 03:00 PM   #6
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Italian (?) circa 1450-1500 (??) hook (picture from the web)
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Evgeny_K; 7th November 2016 at 04:08 PM.
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 03:28 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Oh, i see now.
Most interesting; thank you for the enlightening pictures.
Certainly an old example, being bronze and so stylized.
I wonder if now some member comes up with comments on it.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 03:28 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Evgeny,
Personally i had never seen such kind of device, nor i am certain how it goes. Is it to introduce the scabbard into that slot and hang the hook on the belt ... in what position ? Sorry for ignorance .

I wouldn't equate the term 'ignorance' with you Fernando! and I have to say this unusual item is something I have never seen nor thought of!
It is curious that one of these is notably present but vacant in the great illustration of the individual posted by Eugeny. So what in the world would b placed on these hooks?

Even the assemblage of kit in the next illustration does not reveal what kind of accoutrement would be hung on this as far as I can see.

Great research though Eugeny , in finding that Italian example. Clearly a well established form of item long in use so it will be great to learn more on them. Thank you!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 04:15 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Just for the fun ... a fantasy.

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 06:40 PM   #10
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Just for the fun ... a fantasy.
.
yep
I suppose that this hook was designed to dismounted horseman could fasten his sword on it
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 07:37 PM   #11
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

So ...


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 08:47 PM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

yes. the length of the two straps is optimised for horseback, when you dismount you hang the upper ring with the shorter strap off the hook on the belt. most US army/navy belts have a built in brass hook for this purpose. jeb stuart (CSA cavalry) made a lot of money by selling a brass device with a hook for suspending your sabre by placing the hook over your belt from underneath the belt). the two leather straps were fastened to slots at the base, which included a hook such as we speak about here. it was designed so a gentleman officer could more easily remove his sword before dining, and rapidly replace it after. the chain hanger is for a us sword with only one scabbard ring. the hook is facing staright out at you.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by kronckew; 7th November 2016 at 09:06 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 09:21 PM   #13
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

Wayne, outstanding!
There you have it.....its a cinch hook for sword carry dismounted.
JEB Stuart! and Confederate cavalry, brilliant
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th November 2016, 10:49 PM   #14
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 341
Default

There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2016, 01:21 AM   #15
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
ebay descriptions can be quite fanciful. i get some good items that mislabelled, and do not show up in most collectors searches. one of my favourites was a burmese presentatation dha with a silver inlaid blade ebay called an egyptian machete, got it for under a tenner. i told the vendor what it really was, she said her idiot son had told her that was what he thought it was.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2016, 08:02 AM   #16
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I'm not sure that this description is correct
(EUR 233,00 is too much for "key holder" )
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2016, 10:22 AM   #17
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854?...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
A picture for later reference when the ebay link is gone.
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2016, 11:53 AM   #18
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Wayne, outstanding!
There you have it .....its a cinch hook for sword carry dismounted .., brilliant
What ? Wasn't that assumption previously approached (even sketched) ? I want a lollipop too .
Here is the latest Portuguese solution; one from my stock.

.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by fernando; 8th November 2016 at 12:05 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th November 2016, 12:04 PM   #19
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

brits use that form now on sam brown belts. straight sword scabbard goes into a frog which has two angled straps that buckle on to the two square brass loops either side of the hook, allowing the sword to hang vertically. can be raised off the floor & hung on the hook by a loop on the back of the frog. little fiddly to remove for dinner, you can slide the scabbard out of the frog.
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2016, 06:55 PM   #20
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,621
Default

This past year I purchased an Afghan belt assembly which included one of these hooks. I seem to recall a discussion in the Ethno Forum as to the primary use for this hook. There were several speculations, but nothing really conclusive.
It seems the purpose was to carry a sword, suspended from the top ring of the scabbard, while on horseback. I can't really think of any other use, other than a relationship to the sword.
I have seen a couple of these hooks pop up on Ebay. But the sellers want too much for them.

Rick
Attached Images
   
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2016, 06:24 PM   #21
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Thank you, Rick!
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2017, 10:38 PM   #22
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

Hook for hanging the sword. The first half of the IX century
Archaeological finds in Gnezdovo ( settlement of the second half IX – XI centuries near modern Smolensk, with mixed Scandinavian and Slavic population)http://imgur.com/r/norse/NLGn6
Attached Images
 
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2017, 11:46 AM   #23
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Most interesting, Evgeny.
... as so are some of the other artifacts found, by the way:

.
Attached Images
    
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2017, 03:11 PM   #24
Evgeny_K
Member
 
Evgeny_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 206
Default

another hook from Russia
Attached Images
   
Evgeny_K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2017, 04:43 PM   #25
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

One i would like to have
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th May 2017, 06:17 PM   #26
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
A picture for later reference when the ebay link is gone.
Interesting. I have seen a hook like this for sale somewhere (can't recall where) when it was described as a carbine hook for bandoleer worn across the chest by cavalry.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.