Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 20th October 2019, 11:08 PM   #1
vilhelmsson
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 57
Default 18th Century Zoomporhic Shamshir

Hello,

I picked up this sword recently. It was offered as an 18th century Indian shamshir.

I wanted to solicit the thoughts of the forum about what it's purpose is, and if anyone was familiar with the very faded mark on the blade? And is 18th century right?

The iron work on the elephant is somewhat rudimentary. It feels small in the hand and the handle is somewhat small. At first, I thought it might be a child's sword. But the actual size of the blade is similar in size to a very serious tulwar that I have, though the tulwar has the more substantial feel of a weapon.

I wonder if it might be a piece meant for the 18th century domestic tourist market, maybe marketed to Hindu pilgrims?

I have not examined the organic material in the pommel under a microscope, but it was marketed as bone.
Attached Images
    
vilhelmsson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 12:40 AM   #2
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

The blade looks wootz-y to me, and there is no Indian ricasso: Persian?

Polish a small area and etch it gently. Shiva and Ahuramazda willing you might be pleasantly surprised.

Last edited by ariel; 21st October 2019 at 03:55 AM.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 06:53 AM   #3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

It looks suspiciously like a wootz blade in my view...

In addition the cartouche now almost completely obliterated looks like an Assad Ullah style for which you may like to look at http://auctionsimperial.com/om-the-p...f-assad-allah/

I find the ears of the elephant a bit strange as they look likely to cut into the sword hand..and the finials look peculiar since they appear to be inverted. Odd that the hilt has a chunk of bone added ...I wonder is this hilt largely added to and played with...?

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st October 2019 at 10:47 AM.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 10:39 PM   #4
vilhelmsson
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 57
Default

Ariel and Ibrahiim,

You both have a good eye, or at least good intuition. I received a few things after this that I was a bit more excited about, and I forgot about my initial thoughts on looking at it. The blade does look like on wootz on close examination in some parts.

I think I'll have to polish and etch a small portion, soon.

Assad Ullah style might be too optimistic, and this cartouche seems to be more angular and less round than Assad Ullah's.

The ears are not uncomfortable in the hand; they taper well. I didn't provide a good shot of the finials, but I think they are supposed to look like the bottom half of an elephant's open mouth. At least that was my impression when I saw them in person. The workmanship on the hilt is not going to make it into the next edition of Hindu Arms and Ritual!

I think I need to take another look at how the hilt is assembled and to what extent it is original.
vilhelmsson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 11:10 PM   #5
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,861
Default

Indian shamshir blades rarely present the characteristic Indian ricasso. That is a characteristic of the tulwar blades. However, this blade a ppears to have a rudimentary Indian ricasso.

In my oppinion this is an Indian, not Persian blade.

Why?! It is wider at the ricasso than the typical Persian blade.
Connected to the wider ricasso is the more tapering of the blade towards the tip.

So, to my eyes, this looks like a transition blade between a classic shamshir shape and that of a tulwar.

Also the location of the inscriptions appears to be lower, more towards the tip, and is not of typical Persian shape.

With regards to the hilt, I believe it to be a more recent, very poor, touristy, replacement. Late 19th century, but most likely early 20th...

Why?! The blade is not hilted properly. The ricasso does not go up inside the hilt, but it ends up right before the hilt, meaning that at the joint zone the blade is only supported by the narrow tang and very prone to breakage. So, in the condition it is fit now, this blade cannot serve as a fighting weapon.

My two cents...

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st October 2019 at 11:25 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2019, 11:42 PM   #6
vilhelmsson
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 57
Default

Thank you Marius. And I have your etching guide bookmarked.

I must shamefully admit that the poor hilt is what caught my touristy eye Do you have any thoughts on whether it was intended for domestic Indian tourists versus international tourists? I think we're far enough removed from the early 20th century that this isn't self-evident from it being offered for auction in Europe.

For the price I paid, I'm satisfied with an older, wootzy blade and a late kitschy (at best) hilt.

Your two cents shall be deposited in an interest bearing account of knowledge! In the meantime, I will try not to get into any sword fights. With this sword.
vilhelmsson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.