M a j a p a h i t R e v i s i t e d

ganjawulung · 18th June 2007, 10:10 AM

Dear All and TC,

Sorry for the inconvenience of moving this topic from other thread. Forgive me TC, I move this from your thread "First Keris"... And the caption, "Majapahit Revisited" was quoted from PenangsangII post.

Ganjawulung

K a i
________________________________________
Hello Ganjawulung,
Quote:
Thanks Shahrial, Penangsang, Kai,
Your advice is very useful to determine my next choice. The common mistakes of people like me is: treating other kerises as if Javanese kerises. I'll keep in mind your advice...

You're welcome!

We have to keep in mind that there a quite a few local keris traditions which may differ pretty much in certain respects while others may be shared. OTOH, there has also been extensive cross-pollination (the Jawa-Palembang connection comes to mind as well as the spread of Bugis-influenced styles). I like this diversity!

However, I always wondered wether different blade types may have been treated differently in some of the more diverse locations - for example in the Palembang sultanate. Any historic sources/hints that I missed?

Regards,
Kai

G a n j a w u l u n g
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
We have to keep in mind that there a quite a few local keris traditions which may differ pretty much in certain respects while others may be shared. OTOH, there has also been extensive cross-pollination (the Jawa-Palembang connection comes to mind as well as the spread of Bugis-influenced styles). I like this diversity!

Yes Kai,
I like the diversity of this keris world too... Sometimes, I look back too far.. It was part of our history. The cross-pollination (I quote your word) at least had happened back in the 13th century. And Sang Adityawarman (Tuanku Janaka, Abhiseka Mantrolot) the founder of Pagarruyung (Minangkabau) kingdom (1339) was a Malay-blood who had been grown up in Majapahit...

Read the interesting books from Prof Dr Slamet Muljana (The Fall of Hindu-Javanese Kingdoms and The Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara -- Runtuhnya Kerajaan Hindu-Jawa dan Timbulnya Negara-negara Islam di Nusantara, 1968 reprinted 2005). Or "Sriwijaya" from the same author.

"Pamalayu Expedition" which was sent by Singasari kingdom (1275), they went back to Java -- bringing two Malay ladies (in Indonesian version, we called the two sisters as Dara Jingga and Dara Petak). Dara Petak was married to Raden Wijaya -- the then founder of the Majapahit kingdom (1294). Their son was king Jayanegara. While Dara Jingga was married to a Singasari hero in Sumatera, (the local name: Adwayawarman). The son was Adityawarman.. (See some versions of WF Stutterheim, Prof CC Berg and Prof VG Kern).

Or the diversity of Bugis. After the fall of Gowa 1669 (in the hand of Vereenig-de Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC), the Bugis warriors were spread. And the East Javanese leader, Trunajaya was established his power in Madura. Trunajaya organised the rebellion against Mataram's ruller of Amangkurat I -- the successor of Sultan Agung. Trunajaya organized the eastern power of Nusantara, including the warriors from Bugis. All the ports in Java were occupied, and Mataram was invaded and Plered Palace of Mataram was occupied too (according to the Australian historian, MC Ricklefs) in the end of May or end of June 1677...

But, I look back to far, Kai...

Ganjawulung

P e n a n g s a n g I I
________________________________________
Pak Ganjawulung,

Other than keris, history is another subject of my interest, and on Nusantara context, they are often corelated.

Pangeran Adityawarman then ruled Palembang after handing over Pagaruyung to his mother, Dara Jingga (matriach system?) then became the ruler (governor?) of Palembang who paid tribute to Majapahit. His grandson, Parameswara , eventually opened Melaka after falling out of favor with Majapahit kingdom.

That is why most Palembang & southern Malay Peninsula kerises are very much influenced by the Javanese.

G a n j a w u l u n g
________________________________________
Yes Penangsang,

Matriarchy. This was also, because of the royal ruler came from woman-royal blood. Dara Jingga and also Dara Petak, were the daughters of Melayu (Dharmasraya) king Tribuwanaraja Mauliwarmadewa. (Analysis from Prof Dr Slamet Muljana -- based on interpretation of old texts: "Kidung Panji Wijayakrama" and "Pararaton" -- see Muljana's book, The Fall of Javanese-Hindu kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara, 1965 reprinted 2005).

After the vanishing of Sriwijaya kingdom (San fo t'si, according to old Chinese version), in Sumatera there were two kingdoms: Dharmasraya (located in the then Jambi now) and Palembang. And in 1339, Adityawarman founded a new kingdom in Pagarruyung, after serving in Majapahit kingdom. At that time, Prof Muljana wrote, Adityawarman was 45 years old. About the same age with Jayanegara or Kala Gemet, the Majapahit king and also the son of Raden Wijaya - Dara Petak.

That was history...

Ganjawulung

P e n a n g s a n g I I
________________________________________
Pak Ganja,

Were Dara Petak and Tribuana Tunggadewi (not sure of the spelling) the same person? I used to watch vcd's version of Tutur Tinular whereby it was said that Jaya Negara's mother was Tribuana Tunggadewi (who eventually became Ratu Majapahit after the death of his son Jaya Negara).

BTW, have you tried to dress your sepokal blade with the matching hulu & sarung? Pics please....

G a n j a w u l u n g
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
... Were Dara Petak and Tribuana Tunggadewi (not sure of the spelling) the same person? I used to watch vcd's version of Tutur Tinular whereby it was said that Jaya Negara's mother was Tribuana Tunggadewi (who eventually became Ratu Majapahit after the death of his son Jaya Negara).

BTW, have you tried to dress your sepokal blade with the matching hulu & sarung? Pics please....

Dear Penangsang,
Dara Petak was not the same person with Tribuana Tunggadewi. In Majapahit, based on interpretation of "Pararaton" text, Dara Petak was named as Indreswari. Beside Indreswari (Dara Petak), Raden Wijaya had two other wives from king Kertanegara's daughters (of Singasari). They were Gayatri and Tribuana or Tribuwanatunggadewi...

Indreswari was able to "compete" with the two other Kertanegara's princesses, and became the first lady of Majapahit at that time. But the internal conflict between royal family was still existing, just because the next throne (Jayanegara) was half "overseas blood".

Raden Wijaya or Kertarajasa Jayawardhana reigned 1294-1309. The "half melayu blood" Jayanegara reigned for 19 years from 1309-1328. But then, the throne went to Tribuwanatunggadewi (Jayawisnuwardhani) after 1328...

Rajasanegara or more popular as King Hayamwuruk, was the golden age of Majapahit Kingdom, reigned after Tribuwanatunggadewi (not mentioned the year) but until 1389...

That was history, according to Prof Dr Slamet Muljana -- based on the old texts of Kidung Wijayakrama, Pararaton and Negarakertagama. And also from some source (prasasti) and Chinese chronicle...

My sepokal? No, I am going to return it to my friend in East Java. He told me, that he got another Bugis blade, but I don't see it yet...

Ganjawulung

P a n g e r a n D a t u
I Beg To Differ ....
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
..., Raden Wijaya had two other wives from king Kertanegara's daughters (of Singasari). They were Gayatri and Tribuana or Tribuwanatunggadewi...

Is this another case of: 'History is the ACCEPTABLE version of events and there usually exists more than one'?

According to me, Raden Wijaya/Kertarajasa was married to FOUR daughters of Kertanegara, namely, Tribhuwana, Jayendradewi, Prajnyaparamita/Rajendradewi and Gayatri/Rajapatni.

Tribhuwana WAS NOT Tribhuwanatunggadewi.
Tribhuwanatunggadewi was the daughter of Gayatri and full-sister to Dyah Wiyah Rajadewi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganjawulung
....., reigned after Tribuwanatunggadewi (not mentioned the year) but until 1389...

Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara ruled in the period: 1351 - 1389 CE.

To quote a friend of mine, Supomo Surjohudojo: '... in any tradition it is not the facts, the 'cold' facts, which are the truth, but rather how people see the facts, how people interpret them in accordance with their traditional way of life, and finally how people absorb them into their warm blood so that they become a part of their lives; that is indeed the truth'.

Cheers.
A. G. M a i s e y
________________________________________
Then there was good ole Bony's opinion:-

"History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon"

But its all good fun---isn't it?

G a n j a w u l u n g
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu
....According to me, Raden Wijaya/Kertarajasa was married to FOUR daughters of Kertanegara, namely, Tribhuwana, Jayendradewi, Prajnyaparamita/Rajendradewi and Gayatri/Rajapatni.

Tribhuwana WAS NOT Tribhuwanatunggadewi.
Tribhuwanatunggadewi was the daughter of Gayatri and full-sister to Dyah Wiyah Rajadewi.

Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara ruled in the period: 1351 - 1389 CE. .

Dear Pangeran Datu,
I agree with you, that in many cases, (say it) there is no absolute truth in history.

This is a real example. There was a contrary opinion between Prof CC Berg and WF Stutterheim on Adityawarman, although both of them were known as experts on Majapahit era.

According to Prof Berg, Dara Jingga was the daughter of Kertanegara (Prof Stutterheim: Dara Jingga was not the daughter of Kertanegara, but the daughter of Melayu King (Dharmasraya king) Tribuwanaraja Mauliwarmadewa. In his book (in Dutch) "De Sadeng-oorlog en de mythe van groot Majapahit". Prof Berg wrote that Dyah Dara Jingga was married to Raden Sanggramawijaya or Kertarajasa Jayawardana (First king of Majapahit). And their son was Arya Damar or Adityawarman. Thus, according to Prof Berg, Adityawarman was the youngest son of Raden Wijaya. Contrary to Mr Stutterheim's opinion.

Prof Berg's opinion, according to Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, was also contrary to the old texts of Kidung Panji Wijayakrama (Songs of Panji Wijayakrama) and Pararaton. According to those two old texts, either Dara Jingga or his sister Dara Petak were two Melayu blood, which was brought from "Pamalayu Expedition"... Dara Petak was married to Raden Wijaya, and Dara Jingga actually had been married to Adwayawarman, Singasari's hero who stayed in Sumatera after the Singasari expedition...

Yes, you are correct, Tribuana was not Tribuana Tunggadewi. Tribuana and also Gayatri were two daughters of (king of Kediri) Kertanegara. And the two Kertanegara's daughters, had two daughters: Tribuana Tunggadewi (and then called as Bhre Kahuripan) and Rajadevi Maharajasa (Bhre Daha).

Jayanegara (the half blood Prince) became king of Majapahit in 1309 CE, and was killed in his bed while ill by Tanca. Tanca than killed by Gajah Mada, the patih of Majapahit.

Gajahmada than appointed Bhre Kahuripan (Tribuana Tunggadewi) and Bhre Daha (Rajadevi Maharajasa) as "Rani" (woman-kings) of Majapahit. Tribuana Tunggadewi than married to Kertawardana and their decent was Hayam Wuruk (Abhiseka Rajasanagara), the greatest king of Majapahit kingdom...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu
To quote a friend of mine, Supomo Surjohudojo: '... in any tradition it is not the facts, the 'cold' facts, which are the truth, but rather how people see the facts, how people interpret them in accordance with their traditional way of life, and finally how people absorb them into their warm blood so that they become a part of their lives; that is indeed the truth'.

Cheers.

Yes, Pangeran. I agree with your friends opinion.... Bravo!

P e n a n g s a n g I I
Majapahit revisited
________________________________________
Dear Pak Ganjawulung,

So, the great Prabhu Hayam Wuruk was not a direct decendant of Kertarajasa Jayawardana?

Another thing, there was a conspiracy theory to oust Prabhu Jayanegara - it was said that Ra Tanca (the palace doctor) was coerced by Patih Gajah Mada & Tribhuwana Tunggadewi to poison the young king who was planning to marry all three of his half sisters. Ra Tanca went along with the plan because of grudges on Jayanegara for stealing his wife and destroying his good friend who had rebelled against Majapahit - Ra Kuti. Coincidently, Patih Gajah Mada was the one who had reinstated Jayanegara by crushing the rebellion.

Pak Ganja and all, I would like to add one question, during this turmoil period, what kind (pakem?) of keris used by the courtiers? From what I saw in the movies, the actors were using keris resembling modern Surakarta pieces . My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa?

P a n g e r a n D a t u
________________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
.... My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa?

AsWrWb

Hi PenangsangII,

I know nothing at all about the film so I may be totally off the mark
I assume that you are referring to a film about the Jayanagara era (1309 - 1328).
If this is so, then I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with your suggestion.
I believe that the Dapur Jalak Sangu Tumpeng was originally commissioned by Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara (1350 - 1389).
So there would be a discrepancy of at least two decades.

WRT films... one should not take them too seriously, otherwise one may be driven to distraction. Insanity, even.
Films need to be taken with a grain of salt ( sometimes, even a whole shaker-full). They tend to exercise artistic licence to the limit; sometimes, even beyond.

Cheers.

WsWrWb

A. G. M a i s e y
________________________________________
Very true Pangeran, very true.

But Zulu was pretty spot on---so the experts tell me.

Talking of pinches of salt, are you suggesting that we do not need any salt with the beliefs of who commissioned what keris and when?

18th June 2007, 10:10 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	M a j a p a h i t R e v i s i t e d Dear All and TC, Sorry for the inconvenience of moving this topic from other thread. Forgive me TC, I move this from your thread "First Keris"... And the caption, "Majapahit Revisited" was quoted from PenangsangII post. Ganjawulung K a i ________________________________________ Hello Ganjawulung, Quote: Thanks Shahrial, Penangsang, Kai, Your advice is very useful to determine my next choice. The common mistakes of people like me is: treating other kerises as if Javanese kerises. I'll keep in mind your advice... You're welcome! We have to keep in mind that there a quite a few local keris traditions which may differ pretty much in certain respects while others may be shared. OTOH, there has also been extensive cross-pollination (the Jawa-Palembang connection comes to mind as well as the spread of Bugis-influenced styles). I like this diversity! However, I always wondered wether different blade types may have been treated differently in some of the more diverse locations - for example in the Palembang sultanate. Any historic sources/hints that I missed? Regards, Kai G a n j a w u l u n g ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by kai We have to keep in mind that there a quite a few local keris traditions which may differ pretty much in certain respects while others may be shared. OTOH, there has also been extensive cross-pollination (the Jawa-Palembang connection comes to mind as well as the spread of Bugis-influenced styles). I like this diversity! Yes Kai, I like the diversity of this keris world too... Sometimes, I look back too far.. It was part of our history. The cross-pollination (I quote your word) at least had happened back in the 13th century. And Sang Adityawarman (Tuanku Janaka, Abhiseka Mantrolot) the founder of Pagarruyung (Minangkabau) kingdom (1339) was a Malay-blood who had been grown up in Majapahit... Read the interesting books from Prof Dr Slamet Muljana (The Fall of Hindu-Javanese Kingdoms and The Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara -- Runtuhnya Kerajaan Hindu-Jawa dan Timbulnya Negara-negara Islam di Nusantara, 1968 reprinted 2005). Or "Sriwijaya" from the same author. "Pamalayu Expedition" which was sent by Singasari kingdom (1275), they went back to Java -- bringing two Malay ladies (in Indonesian version, we called the two sisters as Dara Jingga and Dara Petak). Dara Petak was married to Raden Wijaya -- the then founder of the Majapahit kingdom (1294). Their son was king Jayanegara. While Dara Jingga was married to a Singasari hero in Sumatera, (the local name: Adwayawarman). The son was Adityawarman.. (See some versions of WF Stutterheim, Prof CC Berg and Prof VG Kern). Or the diversity of Bugis. After the fall of Gowa 1669 (in the hand of Vereenig-de Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC), the Bugis warriors were spread. And the East Javanese leader, Trunajaya was established his power in Madura. Trunajaya organised the rebellion against Mataram's ruller of Amangkurat I -- the successor of Sultan Agung. Trunajaya organized the eastern power of Nusantara, including the warriors from Bugis. All the ports in Java were occupied, and Mataram was invaded and Plered Palace of Mataram was occupied too (according to the Australian historian, MC Ricklefs) in the end of May or end of June 1677... But, I look back to far, Kai... Ganjawulung P e n a n g s a n g I I ________________________________________ Pak Ganjawulung, Other than keris, history is another subject of my interest, and on Nusantara context, they are often corelated. Pangeran Adityawarman then ruled Palembang after handing over Pagaruyung to his mother, Dara Jingga (matriach system?) then became the ruler (governor?) of Palembang who paid tribute to Majapahit. His grandson, Parameswara , eventually opened Melaka after falling out of favor with Majapahit kingdom. That is why most Palembang & southern Malay Peninsula kerises are very much influenced by the Javanese. G a n j a w u l u n g ________________________________________ Yes Penangsang, Matriarchy. This was also, because of the royal ruler came from woman-royal blood. Dara Jingga and also Dara Petak, were the daughters of Melayu (Dharmasraya) king Tribuwanaraja Mauliwarmadewa. (Analysis from Prof Dr Slamet Muljana -- based on interpretation of old texts: "Kidung Panji Wijayakrama" and "Pararaton" -- see Muljana's book, The Fall of Javanese-Hindu kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara, 1965 reprinted 2005). After the vanishing of Sriwijaya kingdom (San fo t'si, according to old Chinese version), in Sumatera there were two kingdoms: Dharmasraya (located in the then Jambi now) and Palembang. And in 1339, Adityawarman founded a new kingdom in Pagarruyung, after serving in Majapahit kingdom. At that time, Prof Muljana wrote, Adityawarman was 45 years old. About the same age with Jayanegara or Kala Gemet, the Majapahit king and also the son of Raden Wijaya - Dara Petak. That was history... Ganjawulung P e n a n g s a n g I I ________________________________________ Pak Ganja, Were Dara Petak and Tribuana Tunggadewi (not sure of the spelling) the same person? I used to watch vcd's version of Tutur Tinular whereby it was said that Jaya Negara's mother was Tribuana Tunggadewi (who eventually became Ratu Majapahit after the death of his son Jaya Negara). BTW, have you tried to dress your sepokal blade with the matching hulu & sarung? Pics please.... G a n j a w u l u n g ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by PenangsangII ... Were Dara Petak and Tribuana Tunggadewi (not sure of the spelling) the same person? I used to watch vcd's version of Tutur Tinular whereby it was said that Jaya Negara's mother was Tribuana Tunggadewi (who eventually became Ratu Majapahit after the death of his son Jaya Negara). BTW, have you tried to dress your sepokal blade with the matching hulu & sarung? Pics please.... Dear Penangsang, Dara Petak was not the same person with Tribuana Tunggadewi. In Majapahit, based on interpretation of "Pararaton" text, Dara Petak was named as Indreswari. Beside Indreswari (Dara Petak), Raden Wijaya had two other wives from king Kertanegara's daughters (of Singasari). They were Gayatri and Tribuana or Tribuwanatunggadewi... Indreswari was able to "compete" with the two other Kertanegara's princesses, and became the first lady of Majapahit at that time. But the internal conflict between royal family was still existing, just because the next throne (Jayanegara) was half "overseas blood". Raden Wijaya or Kertarajasa Jayawardhana reigned 1294-1309. The "half melayu blood" Jayanegara reigned for 19 years from 1309-1328. But then, the throne went to Tribuwanatunggadewi (Jayawisnuwardhani) after 1328... Rajasanegara or more popular as King Hayamwuruk, was the golden age of Majapahit Kingdom, reigned after Tribuwanatunggadewi (not mentioned the year) but until 1389... That was history, according to Prof Dr Slamet Muljana -- based on the old texts of Kidung Wijayakrama, Pararaton and Negarakertagama. And also from some source (prasasti) and Chinese chronicle... My sepokal? No, I am going to return it to my friend in East Java. He told me, that he got another Bugis blade, but I don't see it yet... Ganjawulung P a n g e r a n D a t u I Beg To Differ .... ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by ganjawulung ..., Raden Wijaya had two other wives from king Kertanegara's daughters (of Singasari). They were Gayatri and Tribuana or Tribuwanatunggadewi... Is this another case of: 'History is the ACCEPTABLE version of events and there usually exists more than one'? According to me, Raden Wijaya/Kertarajasa was married to FOUR daughters of Kertanegara, namely, Tribhuwana, Jayendradewi, Prajnyaparamita/Rajendradewi and Gayatri/Rajapatni. Tribhuwana WAS NOT Tribhuwanatunggadewi. Tribhuwanatunggadewi was the daughter of Gayatri and full-sister to Dyah Wiyah Rajadewi. Quote: Originally Posted by ganjawulung ....., reigned after Tribuwanatunggadewi (not mentioned the year) but until 1389... Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara ruled in the period: 1351 - 1389 CE. To quote a friend of mine, Supomo Surjohudojo: '... in any tradition it is not the facts, the 'cold' facts, which are the truth, but rather how people see the facts, how people interpret them in accordance with their traditional way of life, and finally how people absorb them into their warm blood so that they become a part of their lives; that is indeed the truth'. Cheers. A. G. M a i s e y ________________________________________ Then there was good ole Bony's opinion:- "History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon" But its all good fun---isn't it? G a n j a w u l u n g ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu ....According to me, Raden Wijaya/Kertarajasa was married to FOUR daughters of Kertanegara, namely, Tribhuwana, Jayendradewi, Prajnyaparamita/Rajendradewi and Gayatri/Rajapatni. Tribhuwana WAS NOT Tribhuwanatunggadewi. Tribhuwanatunggadewi was the daughter of Gayatri and full-sister to Dyah Wiyah Rajadewi. Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara ruled in the period: 1351 - 1389 CE. . Dear Pangeran Datu, I agree with you, that in many cases, (say it) there is no absolute truth in history. This is a real example. There was a contrary opinion between Prof CC Berg and WF Stutterheim on Adityawarman, although both of them were known as experts on Majapahit era. According to Prof Berg, Dara Jingga was the daughter of Kertanegara (Prof Stutterheim: Dara Jingga was not the daughter of Kertanegara, but the daughter of Melayu King (Dharmasraya king) Tribuwanaraja Mauliwarmadewa. In his book (in Dutch) "De Sadeng-oorlog en de mythe van groot Majapahit". Prof Berg wrote that Dyah Dara Jingga was married to Raden Sanggramawijaya or Kertarajasa Jayawardana (First king of Majapahit). And their son was Arya Damar or Adityawarman. Thus, according to Prof Berg, Adityawarman was the youngest son of Raden Wijaya. Contrary to Mr Stutterheim's opinion. Prof Berg's opinion, according to Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, was also contrary to the old texts of Kidung Panji Wijayakrama (Songs of Panji Wijayakrama) and Pararaton. According to those two old texts, either Dara Jingga or his sister Dara Petak were two Melayu blood, which was brought from "Pamalayu Expedition"... Dara Petak was married to Raden Wijaya, and Dara Jingga actually had been married to Adwayawarman, Singasari's hero who stayed in Sumatera after the Singasari expedition... Yes, you are correct, Tribuana was not Tribuana Tunggadewi. Tribuana and also Gayatri were two daughters of (king of Kediri) Kertanegara. And the two Kertanegara's daughters, had two daughters: Tribuana Tunggadewi (and then called as Bhre Kahuripan) and Rajadevi Maharajasa (Bhre Daha). Jayanegara (the half blood Prince) became king of Majapahit in 1309 CE, and was killed in his bed while ill by Tanca. Tanca than killed by Gajah Mada, the patih of Majapahit. Gajahmada than appointed Bhre Kahuripan (Tribuana Tunggadewi) and Bhre Daha (Rajadevi Maharajasa) as "Rani" (woman-kings) of Majapahit. Tribuana Tunggadewi than married to Kertawardana and their decent was Hayam Wuruk (Abhiseka Rajasanagara), the greatest king of Majapahit kingdom... Quote: Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu To quote a friend of mine, Supomo Surjohudojo: '... in any tradition it is not the facts, the 'cold' facts, which are the truth, but rather how people see the facts, how people interpret them in accordance with their traditional way of life, and finally how people absorb them into their warm blood so that they become a part of their lives; that is indeed the truth'. Cheers. Yes, Pangeran. I agree with your friends opinion.... Bravo! P e n a n g s a n g I I Majapahit revisited ________________________________________ Dear Pak Ganjawulung, So, the great Prabhu Hayam Wuruk was not a direct decendant of Kertarajasa Jayawardana? Another thing, there was a conspiracy theory to oust Prabhu Jayanegara - it was said that Ra Tanca (the palace doctor) was coerced by Patih Gajah Mada & Tribhuwana Tunggadewi to poison the young king who was planning to marry all three of his half sisters. Ra Tanca went along with the plan because of grudges on Jayanegara for stealing his wife and destroying his good friend who had rebelled against Majapahit - Ra Kuti. Coincidently, Patih Gajah Mada was the one who had reinstated Jayanegara by crushing the rebellion. Pak Ganja and all, I would like to add one question, during this turmoil period, what kind (pakem?) of keris used by the courtiers? From what I saw in the movies, the actors were using keris resembling modern Surakarta pieces . My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa? P a n g e r a n D a t u ________________________________________ Quote: Originally Posted by PenangsangII .... My guess is, should'nt it be keris lurus Jalak Sangu Tumpeng made famous by Arya Hanggareksa? AsWrWb Hi PenangsangII, I know nothing at all about the film so I may be totally off the mark I assume that you are referring to a film about the Jayanagara era (1309 - 1328). If this is so, then I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with your suggestion. I believe that the Dapur Jalak Sangu Tumpeng was originally commissioned by Dyah Hayam Wuruk Sri Rajasanagara (1350 - 1389). So there would be a discrepancy of at least two decades. WRT films... one should not take them too seriously, otherwise one may be driven to distraction. Insanity, even. Films need to be taken with a grain of salt ( sometimes, even a whole shaker-full). They tend to exercise artistic licence to the limit; sometimes, even beyond. Cheers. WsWrWb A. G. M a i s e y ________________________________________ Very true Pangeran, very true. But Zulu was pretty spot on---so the experts tell me. Talking of pinches of salt, are you suggesting that we do not need any salt with the beliefs of who commissioned what keris and when?