Garuda Kris

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

What a fabulous Kris! So far my research is pointing toward the Northern Coast of Borneo and I am still skeptical as to the Jawa Demam origin for this Kris style. The Hindu and Buddhist influences among the peoples of this area are well documented and date back to the 4th century. My working hypothesis is that the symbolisms and form that date back to these earlier societal beliefs stayed as a part of the culture and mythology and are the bases for the form we see in these more rare Kris. With that said the mythological, Sarimanok is definitely another potential source for this form, but given the area I am finding as the origin for these Kris I am not seeing that as likely. I think discussion on these points iare important. hopefully it leads us closer to understanding the group of smiths from which these blades come.

As a side note it appears there was significant trade in kris blades of high quality between Moro and Malay peoples and that Moro Kris blades became status symbols throughout the sultanate.

Thanks for sharing your research!

I'm not well-versed in Mindanao and Sulu art, but I can see traces of Moro patterns in our odd hilts. Also, to note- I read that jawa demam has a certain ambiguity when it comes to what's depicted on the pommel- sometimes it's indeed viewed of as garuda; but it can also be viewed as a crouched man carrying a snake. This is interestingly parallel to the prevailing symbols in Mindanao and Sulu- Mindanao, for its sarimanok, and Sulu, for its naga.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Thanks for sharing your research!

I'm not well-versed in Mindanao and Sulu art, but I can see traces of Moro patterns in our odd hilts. Also, to note- I read that jawa demam has a certain ambiguity when it comes to what's depicted on the pommel- sometimes it's indeed viewed of as garuda; but it can also be viewed as a crouched man carrying a snake. This is interestingly parallel to the prevailing symbols in Mindanao and Sulu- Mindanao, for its sarimanok, and Sulu, for its naga.

I must admit that i have never heard Jawa Demam described as a "crouched man carrying a snake". The generally accepted theory is that the name, which basically means "Feverish Javanese" comes from an abstract figure that appears to be a man bent forward (nor crouching) with his arm wrapped across his belly as if in physical distress. Ergo "feverish". This is not to say that was the original intent of the form. I suppose it is possible it was originally intended as a bird form, but i suspect that many of these long-nosed or "beaked" figures more likely were derived from various long nosed wayang characters rather than birds.

[Sajen]

I agree with David on all points. And especially regarding the term "bird" hilt, I don't see a bird in the hilts which get described as bird hilt.
Kerner distinguished two basis positions by figural hilts, the squatting figure with crossed arms and the squatting figure with the left arm resting on the knee and the right arm around the knee. See the picture for the first one from his booklet "Keris-Griffe Aus Museen und Privatsammlungen", page 42.
And this is also the figure in question, at least I see here a similar figure Kerner shows in the middle row.

[xasterix]

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).

Hello Xas,

Short answer: no, at least I never have seen one.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Thanks David and Detlef, I'm totally clueless on keris and it shows. I'm just wondering if there are also keris hilt samples that have some sort of extended metal ferrule before the pommel (like mine does).

Certainly not to the extent that your example extends, but many hilts have ferrule like metal attachments like a selut as this Sumatran Putri Malu hilt does.

[xasterix]

Thanks again to the both of you!

[SanibelSwassa]

I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!

So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility.

In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering to origin of these more rare kris.

So in these pictures…(all from my collection &#128521 what is the symbolism for the highlighted area??

[David]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

So in these pictures…(all from my collection &#128521 what is the symbolism for the highlighted area??

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

[David]

Originally Posted by xasterix

That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

Also when wielded the beak here is oriented to the cutting edge of the first blow.
What would a bird defend or attack with, the beak, I think.
Just a thought.

[xasterix]

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

I'll throw this link into the mix for you to ponder. While this theory received some amount of resistance if i recall properly i am somewhat drawn to it, though i cannot say it is at all conclusive. But i would suggest that your highlighted areas are representative of wings, but perhaps not in the orientation that you are expecting. I have not yet found there to be any significant evidence that the kakatu (cockatoo) bird has any cultural significance to Moro peoples, so using it in abstract for the pommel design on not one, but two of their most iconic weapons (Kris and Barung) seems a bit strange. But we can indeed find significance in the legend of the Sarimanok and when exampled with the blade pointing upward we can see a very clear abstract of a bird that quite resembles the Sarimanok.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

Coming back to this image and the previous discussion about what the hulu actually could be... I see this image has not been presented to the previous discussion....I've not delved in the the accession of the item, but the iconography is clear to me even if not regionally specific.

The other image, another from online that to my eyes fits within the subgroup too.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=sarimanok

I see the icon as such... see annotations within the image.
I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU?
But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too....

[Gavin Nugent]

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not

[SanibelSwassa]

I am glad to see this discussion getting some traction!

So let’s start back with the idea of the bird form and then move to the Jawa Demam possibility.

In the pictures below I show the possible interpretations of the more traditional Moro hilt designs that are attributed the form of the Philippines native red-vented cockatoo. I want to remind that these are symbolic representations and likely talismanic in nature. Finding similarities in these forms and then looking toward those similarities in the form of what I am calling the Garuda Kris may be helpful in discovering or uncovering the origin of these more rare kris.

So in these pictures…(all from my collection) what is the symbolism for the highlighted??

[SanibelSwassa]

Now we can look for the same symbolism in the Garuda kris.

I have highlighted the area for observation.

To make the correlation to the amorphous bird form you would also need to look to orientation an find a beak and a crest.

[SanibelSwassa]

We do not see these common symbols in the forms of the Java Demam nor do we find the Shivering Javanese man with the any of the various accompanying forms shown the the pictures already shared in the form of the Garuda kris shown above. While the pistol grip form of the hilt design shares in the indo style the symbolisms do not appear to follow the known elements of the Java Demam origin story associated with those blades.

Further we have other dissimilar elements in the Garuda kris. These elements include the motifs on what I will label the front and back faces of the hilt which should be examined.

As I have already shown other examples here is another compare and contrast.

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa

We do not see these common symbols in the forms of the Java Demam nor do we find the Shivering Javanese man with the any of the various accompanying forms shown the the pictures already shared in the form of the Garuda kris shown above. While the pistol grip form of the hilt design shares in the indo style the symbolisms do not appear to follow the known elements of the Java Demam origin story associated with those blades.

Further we have other dissimilar elements in the Garuda kris. These elements include the motifs on what I will label the front and back faces of the hilt which should be examined.

As I have already shown other examples here is another compare and contrast.

There are several okir (Mindanao) and ukkil (Sulu) motifs incorporating that shape/pattern that you isolated.

By chance, I was able to borrow some kris (probably preWW2-postWW2 era thereabouts) that incorporated the hilt in question- but one of them clearly depicted what it was all about