Notching of sword blades -Austria 18th century

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2009, 06:56 PM

On Eastern European swords in the 18th century, a number of these swords have a curious notch, which seems consistantly placed on the sword back near the tip. Wagner, in his "Cut and Thrust Weapons" describes the anomaly as intended to worsen a thrusting wound, however this would seem unlikely in the case of sabres which were obviously for slashing cuts where the notched back would be of no real use.
Clearly, there were cases known during Napoleonic times where cavalry used sword manuevers of 'giving point' even with sabres, but I am uncertain of how prevalent that might have been in Eastern Europe over 50-70 years prior.

It is important to note that this practice seems primarily to have been used by Austrians, and apparantly on cavalry swords, whether the heavy straight blade pallasch or light cavalry sabres. I would like to find out whether this practice might have been used on other swords of other countries, and what might have been the purpose of these notches.

I should point out that these are not damage nicks as has been suggested, but deliberately filed notches in essentially the same blade back position.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 1st August 2009, 04:15 PM

Hi Jim,

I can't believe this one hasn't been solved yet. I still believe it has a utilitarian purpose rather then a gory one. Last time this came up it got me looking at some of my blades, and I found this 'dent' on one of my British 1796. To my eye it may have had a similar purpose?

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2009, 05:34 PM

Hi Jeff,
Thank you so much for responding! I pretty much thought this would get zero traffic, but you are always up for a good mystery. As you know, we've been kicking this one around for over a decade now, and it seems about as elusive as ever.

What really puzzles me is that these 'notches' are so deliberately placed, but not on all swords, more of an appearance on singular ones. As noted, the 'practice' seems relegated to Austria just prior to, during, and after the War of Austrian Succession, mid 18th century.

Typically we think of nicks and notches at the back of a sword blade as combat related, but on your M1796, again the notch is seemingly deliberately placed, not random as if from accidental damage.

In the past, I have encountered numerous suggestions of these notches having actual purpose, such as a suggestion of application in catching the reins of an opponents horse. It is known that cavalry tactics often unfortunately required action toward the horse, and disabling the opponent by eliminating control of his horse sometimes was accomplished by sword cuts to the bridle.
These notches do not seem sufficiently sized to accomplish any sort of hooking of reins, particularly in the dramatic movements of pitched combat.

I have even heard of utilitarian use such as camp functions such as lifting hot pots off campfires, but again, the size of the 'notches' are far too shallow for such use.

What we know is that this was done, and deliberately, and though the number of instances is relatively limited, it is enough to determine that it must have had some significance.

I have always hoped that someone well versed in the military history of Eastern Europe, especially in these periods, might be familiar with some of the narratives that might mention the notching of blades. Eduard Wagner mentions it in his "Cut and Thrust Weapons" in reference to several of the swords in Austrian chapter, where the line drawings even include that detail as a well known feature of these swords. In his notes he suggests the notches 'increasing wounding potential' , but again, how does a notch on the back of a sabre increase wounding potential?

Thank you again Jeff, it is always great that you are always willing to join me in these ponderous conundrums ! Maybe we'll never get it solved, but its always fun pursuing a good mystery, and I always hope we might get other weapons sleuths to join us

All the very best,
Jim

kisak · 1st August 2009, 06:39 PM

Perhaps some sort of marking, measure, or similar, instead of something intended to be of any "mechanical" use? The notch in Jeff's blade at least looks like it'd be a it on the small side for anything involving things thicker than normal sewing thread.

Jeff D · 1st August 2009, 11:02 PM

Hi Jim and Kisak,

The dent on my 1796 would catch a small rope or string but not much more. Here are some scans from Wagner, the illustrated notches aren't much bigger than my dent. The mystery lives on.

All the Best
Jeff

Hotspur · 2nd August 2009, 04:55 AM

Just a guess on my part but I'll look at some other stuff. if we are seeing this on predominately cavalry swords, I would say it is for retreiving one's reins (or possibly fashionable to retreive one's hat without dismounting).

Cheers

Hotspur; pure speculation but thought out a bit

Edit

Or snag an opponent off balance to dismount or harry

Jeff D · 2nd August 2009, 06:22 AM

Hi Glen,

I think you are on the right track. To me the size and location of the notches (not including my sample) suggest a more ceremonial or utilitarian, than martial function. Having spent my entire life with the unpredictability of horses, if this notch has any equestrian function, it can only be for under the most calm and controlled conditions. Yet I have only seen this feature on cavalry blades both straight and sabers.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 4th August 2009, 01:09 AM

Hi Jeff,
Thank you so much for posting those!!!!
In looking closely at these notches, I am really baffled on how these could effectively snag anything. The notch is far too small and shallow, at least in my view, but I can well understand the importance of retrieving ones reins if dropped. In combat though, despite all the chivalry (?) would enemy horsemen patiently wait while one carefully and deftly toiled at reaching reins out of reach? On the parade ground of course, entirely different, and perhaps as much fashion and showmanship was involved with cavalry in these times, there may be some degree of plausibility.
It would make for an interesting test, but again, it would be great to find any mention in contemporary narrative mentioning such use of the sword.

I really appreciate your posting these out of Wagner, and its great having you at it here again, your perspective is always key!

All the best,
Jim

31st July 2009, 06:56 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Notching of sword blades -Austria 18th century On Eastern European swords in the 18th century, a number of these swords have a curious notch, which seems consistantly placed on the sword back near the tip. Wagner, in his "Cut and Thrust Weapons" describes the anomaly as intended to worsen a thrusting wound, however this would seem unlikely in the case of sabres which were obviously for slashing cuts where the notched back would be of no real use. Clearly, there were cases known during Napoleonic times where cavalry used sword manuevers of 'giving point' even with sabres, but I am uncertain of how prevalent that might have been in Eastern Europe over 50-70 years prior. It is important to note that this practice seems primarily to have been used by Austrians, and apparantly on cavalry swords, whether the heavy straight blade pallasch or light cavalry sabres. I would like to find out whether this practice might have been used on other swords of other countries, and what might have been the purpose of these notches. I should point out that these are not damage nicks as has been suggested, but deliberately filed notches in essentially the same blade back position. All best regards, Jim Attached Images

1st August 2009, 04:15 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim, I can't believe this one hasn't been solved yet. I still believe it has a utilitarian purpose rather then a gory one. Last time this came up it got me looking at some of my blades, and I found this 'dent' on one of my British 1796. To my eye it may have had a similar purpose? All the Best Jeff Attached Images

1st August 2009, 11:02 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Jim and Kisak, The dent on my 1796 would catch a small rope or string but not much more. Here are some scans from Wagner, the illustrated notches aren't much bigger than my dent. The mystery lives on. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

1st August 2009, 05:34 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Jeff, Thank you so much for responding! I pretty much thought this would get zero traffic, but you are always up for a good mystery. As you know, we've been kicking this one around for over a decade now, and it seems about as elusive as ever. What really puzzles me is that these 'notches' are so deliberately placed, but not on all swords, more of an appearance on singular ones. As noted, the 'practice' seems relegated to Austria just prior to, during, and after the War of Austrian Succession, mid 18th century. Typically we think of nicks and notches at the back of a sword blade as combat related, but on your M1796, again the notch is seemingly deliberately placed, not random as if from accidental damage. In the past, I have encountered numerous suggestions of these notches having actual purpose, such as a suggestion of application in catching the reins of an opponents horse. It is known that cavalry tactics often unfortunately required action toward the horse, and disabling the opponent by eliminating control of his horse sometimes was accomplished by sword cuts to the bridle. These notches do not seem sufficiently sized to accomplish any sort of hooking of reins, particularly in the dramatic movements of pitched combat. I have even heard of utilitarian use such as camp functions such as lifting hot pots off campfires, but again, the size of the 'notches' are far too shallow for such use. What we know is that this was done, and deliberately, and though the number of instances is relatively limited, it is enough to determine that it must have had some significance. I have always hoped that someone well versed in the military history of Eastern Europe, especially in these periods, might be familiar with some of the narratives that might mention the notching of blades. Eduard Wagner mentions it in his "Cut and Thrust Weapons" in reference to several of the swords in Austrian chapter, where the line drawings even include that detail as a well known feature of these swords. In his notes he suggests the notches 'increasing wounding potential' , but again, how does a notch on the back of a sabre increase wounding potential? Thank you again Jeff, it is always great that you are always willing to join me in these ponderous conundrums ! Maybe we'll never get it solved, but its always fun pursuing a good mystery, and I always hope we might get other weapons sleuths to join us All the very best, Jim

1st August 2009, 06:39 PM	#4
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Perhaps some sort of marking, measure, or similar, instead of something intended to be of any "mechanical" use? The notch in Jeff's blade at least looks like it'd be a it on the small side for anything involving things thicker than normal sewing thread.

2nd August 2009, 04:55 AM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 489	Just a guess on my part but I'll look at some other stuff. if we are seeing this on predominately cavalry swords, I would say it is for retreiving one's reins (or possibly fashionable to retreive one's hat without dismounting). Cheers Hotspur; pure speculation but thought out a bit Edit Or snag an opponent off balance to dismount or harry

2nd August 2009, 06:22 AM	#7
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Glen, I think you are on the right track. To me the size and location of the notches (not including my sample) suggest a more ceremonial or utilitarian, than martial function. Having spent my entire life with the unpredictability of horses, if this notch has any equestrian function, it can only be for under the most calm and controlled conditions. Yet I have only seen this feature on cavalry blades both straight and sabers. All the Best Jeff

4th August 2009, 01:09 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Jeff, Thank you so much for posting those!!!! In looking closely at these notches, I am really baffled on how these could effectively snag anything. The notch is far too small and shallow, at least in my view, but I can well understand the importance of retrieving ones reins if dropped. In combat though, despite all the chivalry (?) would enemy horsemen patiently wait while one carefully and deftly toiled at reaching reins out of reach? On the parade ground of course, entirely different, and perhaps as much fashion and showmanship was involved with cavalry in these times, there may be some degree of plausibility. It would make for an interesting test, but again, it would be great to find any mention in contemporary narrative mentioning such use of the sword. I really appreciate your posting these out of Wagner, and its great having you at it here again, your perspective is always key! All the best, Jim