BLUNDERBUSS FROM YORK MAIL - Page 2

Rick · 27th February 2012, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Gentlemen, I beg to differ.

I may not match your expertise in 18th century arms but over more than 35 years I have collected hundreds of 14th-17th century guns, related items and Gothic and Renaissance iron work, let alone completely dismantled many hundreds of 18th-19th items and passed expert opinions on them.

I cannot see any argument why the iron parts and the stock (the original polish was probably taken off the latter) should be fake. Who on earth should do that - and why? Imagine the price you can possibly get ...

Best,
Michael

Thank you Michael, the removal of polish certainly would change the appearance of the piece; so much patina lost !

laEspadaAncha · 27th February 2012, 02:16 AM

Hi Spiral,

I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612

For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "U*S" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free.

I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife.

I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century.

As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do.

I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font.

Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard:

The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850.

This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade:

Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard:

There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century.

Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870.

I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se.

Regards,

Chris

spiral · 27th February 2012, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi Spiral,

As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do.

Regards,
Chris

Cheers Chris I agree we shouldnt hijack this thread further, althought I must say that although I am always pleased to learn & admit errors, the pilling of one fake or {perhaps just radicaly missdated knife?} upon another doesnt realy answear the questian. {Athough the Cowans piece when one sees the badly dyed & even ground stag & single rivet, certaly never came from 19th century Sheffield.}

Someone puts a lot of sans serif "civil war" knives into Cowans for auction I notice.

Perhaps we should start a new thread on these pieces & markings?

But if you choose not to my email is spiraltwista@aol.com

Regards,
Jonathan

laEspadaAncha · 27th February 2012, 11:22 PM

Jonathan,

Wouldn't you think that if all these examples were "fake" as you (IMO erroneously) are so quick to claim, that maybe... just maybe, someone - just one person - might have gone on record stating as much?

The first example I posted was, as I wrote, originally posted on BF, and is from a museum-quality collection owned by an esteemed collector. Don't you think BRL would have chimed in if he had found the example to be anything less than authentic? When has he ever not?

Flayderman also shows multiple documented examples of pre-Civil War knives in his treatise on the Bowie knife (link here), made in Sheffield, for the American market, that clearly show the use of a sans serif font.

Once again - if you can find me one... just one example of a "fake" imported knock-off that executed the well-known "U*S" trademark as present and as it appears on my example, I will very seriously consider sending you the knife. For free. Of course, you will understand if I don't hold my breath, as such as example will not be forthcoming.

Again, I believe the evidence in support of the use of sans serif fonts in England by the mid-19th century is insurmountable. Anyway, I will expand further in the new thread dedicated to this discussion, here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...779#post134779

Regards,

Chris

spiral · 27th February 2012, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Jonathan,

Wouldn't you think that if all these examples were "fake" as you (IMO erroneously) are so quick to claim, that maybe... just maybe, someone - just one person - might have gone on record stating as much?

The first example I posted was, as I wrote, originally posted on BF, and is from a museum-quality collection owned by an esteemed collector. Don't you think BRL would have chimed in if he had found the example to be anything less than authentic? When has he ever not?

Flayderman also shows multiple documented examples of pre-Civil War knives in his treatise on the Bowie knife (link here), made in Sheffield, for the American market, that clearly show the use of a sans serif font.

Once again - if you can find me one... just one example of a "fake" imported knock-off that executed the well-known "U*S" trademark as present and as it appears on my example, I will very seriously consider sending you the knife. For free. Of course, you will understand if I don't hold my breath, as such as example will not be forthcoming.

Again, I believe the evidence in support of the use of sans serif fonts in England by the mid-19th century is insurmountable. Anyway, I will expand further in the new thread dedicated to this discussion, here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...779#post134779

Regards,

Chris

The point of suggesting the new thread Chris was to stop the Hijacking.

sorry Cerjak...

spiral

laEspadaAncha · 28th February 2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

The point of suggesting the new thread Chris was to stop the Hijacking.

sorry Cerjak...

spiral

The relevance of the establishment of the use of a sans serif font, while I agree is deserving of its own thread, is nonetheless entirely relevant to this thread for the aforementioned reasons.

Cerjak · 2nd March 2012, 03:41 PM

You was right and as usually Fernando your felling was good .
After had removed some screw now I have many evidences to confirm yours opinion that it was a XXI th Century production and you could see it with those photos .( sorry for quality but enough to see)
This afternoon I will send back to this auction company who had sold me as "royal mail Blunderbuss from the 19 th century from the city of York"
AGAIN THANK YOU !
CERJAK

fernando · 2nd March 2012, 04:57 PM

Oh, it is a great thing you can have it returned and recuperate your money

Let's have a drink to that

.

Cerjak · 2nd March 2012, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh, it is a great thing you can have it returned and recuperate your money

Let's have a drink to that

.

why not, as you know France it is the country of Champagne !!

Jim McDougall · 2nd March 2012, 08:46 PM

Cerjak, I would like to thank you very much for your gentlemanly reception of the unfortunately very accurate assessment of this gun, which has has proven to be a modern commercial product. I am glad to hear that the auction company has taken a noble stance on accepting return, however I hope they will look further into providing more accurate descriptions in their offerings.
I also thank you for sharing detailed photos of the elements of this gun, which gives us all a very good lesson on the spurious items out there and what to look for. This item has also led to a fascinating discussion, as well as a great spin off on the very important topic of the use of serifs on stamped fonts, beautifully handled by Chris and Spiral.

Gentleman, an extremely impressive turn out on this, thank you all so much. I know Ive certainly learned a lot on these fascinating blunderbuss guns!

All the very best,
Jim

Rick · 2nd March 2012, 10:41 PM

You have to wonder when the point of diminishing return is reached by forgers of pieces like this .

Where would stuff like this be manufactured ?

laEspadaAncha · 3rd March 2012, 02:47 AM

So Cerjak,

Were any parts original, or was the entire thing a forgery?

I'm glad to hear you will be able to recover the cost of your purchase from the auction house, and please include myself among the list of those grateful for your efforts to share the journey with the rest of us...

I'm gun shy (pun intended) when it comes to pulling the trigger (ditto) on antique firearms at an auction. I know for a fact I've let good money pass me by on more than one occasion in my effort to make sure I never thrown bad money after one, because if you buy a bum gun at one of the area houses, the only context under which you get to return it is if you re-consign it.

27th February 2012, 02:16 AM	#32
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Spiral, I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612 For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "US" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free. I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife. I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century. As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do. I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font. Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard: The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850. This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both* a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade: Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard: There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century. Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870. I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se. Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 27th February 2012 at 06:42 AM. Reason: To capitalize German... my castle for a proofreader!

2nd March 2012, 03:41 PM	#37
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,064	This blunderbuss was a fake ! You was right and as usually Fernando your felling was good . After had removed some screw now I have many evidences to confirm yours opinion that it was a XXI th Century production and you could see it with those photos .( sorry for quality but enough to see) This afternoon I will send back to this auction company who had sold me as "royal mail Blunderbuss from the 19 th century from the city of York" AGAIN THANK YOU ! CERJAK Attached Images

27th February 2012, 11:22 PM	#34
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Jonathan, Wouldn't you think that if all these examples were "fake" as you (IMO erroneously) are so quick to claim, that maybe... just maybe, someone - just one person - might have gone on record stating as much? The first example I posted was, as I wrote, originally posted on BF, and is from a museum-quality collection owned by an esteemed collector. Don't you think BRL would have chimed in if he had found the example to be anything less than authentic? When has he ever not? Flayderman also shows multiple documented examples of pre-Civil War knives in his treatise on the Bowie knife (link here), made in Sheffield, for the American market, that clearly show the use of a sans serif font. Once again - if you can find me one... just one example of a "fake" imported knock-off that executed the well-known "US" trademark as present and as it appears on my example, I will very seriously consider sending you the knife. For free. Of course, you will understand if I don't hold my breath, as such as example will not be forthcoming. Again, I believe the evidence in support* of the use of sans serif fonts in England by the mid-19th century is insurmountable. Anyway, I will expand further in the new thread dedicated to this discussion, here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...779#post134779 Regards, Chris

2nd March 2012, 04:57 PM	#38
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Oh, it is a great thing you can have it returned and recuperate your money Let's have a drink to that .

2nd March 2012, 08:46 PM	#40
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,751	Cerjak, I would like to thank you very much for your gentlemanly reception of the unfortunately very accurate assessment of this gun, which has has proven to be a modern commercial product. I am glad to hear that the auction company has taken a noble stance on accepting return, however I hope they will look further into providing more accurate descriptions in their offerings. I also thank you for sharing detailed photos of the elements of this gun, which gives us all a very good lesson on the spurious items out there and what to look for. This item has also led to a fascinating discussion, as well as a great spin off on the very important topic of the use of serifs on stamped fonts, beautifully handled by Chris and Spiral. Gentleman, an extremely impressive turn out on this, thank you all so much. I know Ive certainly learned a lot on these fascinating blunderbuss guns! All the very best, Jim

2nd March 2012, 10:41 PM	#41
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	You have to wonder when the point of diminishing return is reached by forgers of pieces like this . Where would stuff like this be manufactured ?

3rd March 2012, 02:47 AM	#42
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	So Cerjak, Were any parts original, or was the entire thing a forgery? I'm glad to hear you will be able to recover the cost of your purchase from the auction house, and please include myself among the list of those grateful for your efforts to share the journey with the rest of us... I'm gun shy (pun intended) when it comes to pulling the trigger (ditto) on antique firearms at an auction. I know for a fact I've let good money pass me by on more than one occasion in my effort to make sure I never thrown bad money after one, because if you buy a bum gun at one of the area houses, the only context under which you get to return it is if you re-consign it.