Yemeni Jambiya for restoration....but is it worth it?

katana · 22nd October 2007, 09:23 PM

Took a risk on this Jambiya from the Yemen. needs restoration on the scabbard. The blade is described as 3mm thick (not including the central ridge) evidence of sharpening but described as 'bluntish' and is 9" long (OAL 13")
The grip seems to have some 'translucence' ....could it be Rhino horn?
The leather on the wooden cored scabbard needs repair, uncertain as to whether the hilt / scabbard decoration is silver/white metal/pewter ?

This is 'out of my area' .....but is this a reasonable example? Could this be late 19thC to early 20th C ?

I would appreciate comments or advice....thank you

Regards David

fernando · 22nd October 2007, 10:03 PM

(??) rhino horn would no be translucid (??)

Robert · 22nd October 2007, 10:09 PM

Maybe amber?

fernando · 22nd October 2007, 10:16 PM

Hi Robert
Amber was my first thaught too. Only i browsed for janbiyyas with such material hilt, but spelling ambar like in Portuguese. Now i see there are amber hilted janbiyyas. So it could well be.
Being the case, isn't that an added value ?
Fernando

Lew · 22nd October 2007, 10:27 PM

Hi Katana

Your jambiya seems circa 1970s-80s the quality is ok for that time period. The silver work is not as nice as the the ones seen prior to 1948. Many of the skilled Yemeni silversmiths were Jewish and most of them immigrated to Israel after 1948. So you do see a decline in over all silverwork quality after that time. As far as the hilt being made of rhino horn you will need to look for those tightly packed fiber bundles at the top of the hilt. Here are two older 19th century ones for comparison the top one is rhino horn.

Lew

Battara · 22nd October 2007, 11:10 PM

Also some rhino horn can be translucent.

fernando · 22nd October 2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Also some rhino horn can be translucent.

Yes, with the coming of age. But maybe not so bright as David's example(?)

spiral · 22nd October 2007, 11:46 PM

Rhino horn can be translucent & bright in sunlight etc at any age. Depends on the individual horn. Goat,cow or buffalo horn can be translucent to on occasions.

At least it looks like a real blade as well.

The amber jambiyas dont seem to be real amber to me. More a plastic resin mix.

Spiral

katana · 23rd October 2007, 01:51 PM

Thank you all for your replies.

Robert and Fernando, amber was something I had not considered and could be a possibility. The seller describes the hilt as being 'some sort of bone'...but due to the colouration and 'apparent' translucence, assumed rhino a high possibility.

Hi Lew, thank you for the additional info, I agree totally that the silverwork on mine has less quality than the really nice examples you posted.

Hi Spiral, the pics do suggest that the blade is 'real' ( I do hope you are right) and it was this thought that I took the risk and bought it. I understand that a number of recent blades were made with two sheets of steel welded together (I assume that the central ridge contour is 'pressed' on each sheet and gives the illusion of a solid central spine when the two halves are joined)
Also I was under the impression that the translucence of Rhino horn improves with age and handling.....thanks for putting me 'straight'.

I will post a better description and pics when it arrives.

Kind Regards David

spiral · 23rd October 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Also I was under the impression that the translucence of Rhino horn improves with age and handling.....thanks for putting me 'straight'.

I didnt say it didnt improve David, I said "Rhino horn can be translucent & bright in sunlight etc at any age."

With care & handling with clean hands it can get a better shine & patina. With unwashed hands it just goes brown & opaque.

But it can start out bright & translucent.

Look forward to the pics. That doesnt look a hollow blade.

Spiral

Lew · 23rd October 2007, 10:30 PM

Spiral

Are you suggesting that since my jambiya's rhino horn is dark and opaque that the original owner had dirty hands

.

Lew

spiral · 23rd October 2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Spiral

Are you suggesting that since my jambiya's rhino horn is dark and opaque that the original owner had dirty hands

.

Lew

Only if it was translucent to begin with Lew!

It might just be dark & opaque rhino horn.

Spiral

katana · 26th October 2007, 02:13 PM

Dagger received today.......very disappointing

The Rhino / amber is in fact resin/plastic it has a grainy, marbled effect but was confirmed by the 'hot pin' test.

The blade.....is composed of two metal sheets

The 'patination' of the blade surface really looks convincing, I think, that perhaps the steel has a quantity of re-cycled metal of differing grades which adds to the illusion.

The 'silver' banding on the hilt (just before the blade) has partially loosened and I can see printed wording on the reverse side, looks like a section of a tin can coated with some dull, silvery material on the 'facing side'.

Who said "the camera never lies....."

Its a real shame (sham

), I was really looking forward to restoring this knife and scabbard ..... with no redeeming features it would be a complete waste of time and effort.

Hopefully, other formites will 'learn' from my mistake...

Never mind....... nothing ventured....nothing gained

Regards David

Battara · 26th October 2007, 06:46 PM

I'm so sorry you got screwed.

This happened to me in receiving a "yemeni jambiya". Was not pleased.

spiral · 26th October 2007, 06:56 PM

Thats a shame, Id have taken a chance on it as well if it was cheap...

Lots of them have plastic handles. Including most that are sold as amber.....

Buffalo horn is a lot more common than rhino as well.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 26th October 2007, 07:22 PM

Amber is resin, a hot pin will sink into it. Amber is affected by perfume or alcohol but do not think plastic is, well not to the same extent. By and large I feel these really are not worth going after unless you can handle them. I also speak from experience. I think in all the years collesting I have only seen three or four worth anything near the money asked.

fernando · 26th October 2007, 07:39 PM

I am so sorry David.
I wish for you that it wouldn't have happened.
I dye a little when it happens to me.
Can't you stuff it back?
Fernando

katana · 26th October 2007, 07:56 PM

Thank you for your replies,
This was a very cheap purchase (the seller has kindly offered to refund half the money ) and I have learned valuable lessons which will help me prevent more costly mistakes

......hopefully

The fumes from the hot pin test smelt 'plasticky' .....I would imagine that amber would give off a more aromatic aroma

Kind Regards David

Michael Blalock · 26th October 2007, 10:40 PM

Just because it's a cheap jambiya doesn't mean it is not a genuine ethnographic item. The population of Yemen was 7 million in the 60's and has grown to 22 million today. Every man wears one. That's several million jambiyas. They are like ties for Westeners and once you get out of the wealthy antique class, most impoverished Yemeni men(who make up the majority of the population) want a nice new shiny one. So, there are millions of them floating around.
Bakelite amber has been around since the 1800's. I have never heard of genuine amber (fossilized tree sap) in a jambiya handle anyway. A piece real amber that size would be worth a lot of money compared to the going rate for a jambiya.
Also, the majority of the blades are made with two layers of sheet metal, they are for looks, not use and this makes them lighter to wear all day. I used to watch them made in the souq. The maker would hammer out the two sides, braze the halves together and then burnish the welds.

Antique jambiyas of any quality are very rare nowadays and new ones are made to imitate the older jambiyas, even for the locals to buy.

katana · 26th October 2007, 11:09 PM

Thank you Micheal for putting this Jambiya into a social context, I imagined that ...because of the knife's cultural significance, (I believed) that many would be passed down through the generations. The population 'explosion' that you mentioned would certainly explain the demand...and lack of 'heirloom' Jambiya's.

The bakerlite amber, which I am assuming is the material this Jambiya's hilt is made, is quite convincing, it has a 'grainy' structure with varying translucence and is not unattractive.

Regards David

fernando · 26th October 2007, 11:17 PM

Interesting input, Michael
One often reads that blades made in two halves are tourist junk.
Also that rhino horn in the hilts is the real thing.
May i show ( again) my specimen, all in ( coin? ) silver, with an entire blade.
The silver work seems to have been made by Jew smiths, as it has a "concealed" mark supposedly in Temani ( Yemeny hebrew ).
I have read somewhere that Jew smiths were the best for the silver work, but they were not allowed to make blades.
I ignore the real age of this piece, but i guess (hope) it is XIX century.
Sorry to have hijacked your thread, David.
Fernando

spiral · 26th October 2007, 11:40 PM

Interesting Micheal Ethnographic items indeed then! Not weapons though, when they have hollow blades? just dress items?

many Thousands are made of rhino Fernando, millions are buffalo or plastic.

Thats a very nice looking one you have there....very nice....

Spiral

Michael Blalock · 27th October 2007, 02:17 AM

Katana, The treasuring antiques is a relativly new concept to the bulk of the population in arabia. The majority of yemenis were dirt poor and wanted a new looking jambiya. Rhino horn was for the rich. In the sixties they would decorate the jambiyas and bandoliers with thumb tacks, bits of foil from cigarette wrappers and the most popular jambiya scabbard cover seemed to be green plastic. It was during the seventies when about a million yemenis working in Saudi Arabia and the gulf states were remiting hundreds of millions home that the common man could afford rhino. This resulted in extensive poaching and a drop in black rhino population from over 100 thousand to about 2500 today.
Because Yemen supported Saddam Hussain with the invasion of Kuwait, Yemenis were expelled and the cash flow stopped. Which is good for the rhinos.

22nd October 2007, 09:23 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Yemeni Jambiya for restoration....but is it worth it? Took a risk on this Jambiya from the Yemen. needs restoration on the scabbard. The blade is described as 3mm thick (not including the central ridge) evidence of sharpening but described as 'bluntish' and is 9" long (OAL 13") The grip seems to have some 'translucence' ....could it be Rhino horn? The leather on the wooden cored scabbard needs repair, uncertain as to whether the hilt / scabbard decoration is silver/white metal/pewter ? This is 'out of my area' .....but is this a reasonable example? Could this be late 19thC to early 20th C ? I would appreciate comments or advice....thank you Regards David Attached Images

22nd October 2007, 10:27 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Katana Your jambiya seems circa 1970s-80s the quality is ok for that time period. The silver work is not as nice as the the ones seen prior to 1948. Many of the skilled Yemeni silversmiths were Jewish and most of them immigrated to Israel after 1948. So you do see a decline in over all silverwork quality after that time. As far as the hilt being made of rhino horn you will need to look for those tightly packed fiber bundles at the top of the hilt. Here are two older 19th century ones for comparison the top one is rhino horn. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 23rd October 2007 at 03:00 PM.

26th October 2007, 11:17 PM	#21
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Interesting input, Michael One often reads that blades made in two halves are tourist junk. Also that rhino horn in the hilts is the real thing. May i show ( again) my specimen, all in ( coin? ) silver, with an entire blade. The silver work seems to have been made by Jew smiths, as it has a "concealed" mark supposedly in Temani ( Yemeny hebrew ). I have read somewhere that Jew smiths were the best for the silver work, but they were not allowed to make blades. I ignore the real age of this piece, but i guess (hope) it is XIX century. Sorry to have hijacked your thread, David. Fernando Attached Images

22nd October 2007, 10:03 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	(??) rhino horn would no be translucid (??)

22nd October 2007, 10:09 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Maybe amber?

22nd October 2007, 10:16 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Robert Amber was my first thaught too. Only i browsed for janbiyyas with such material hilt, but spelling ambar like in Portuguese. Now i see there are amber hilted janbiyyas. So it could well be. Being the case, isn't that an added value ? Fernando

22nd October 2007, 11:10 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Also some rhino horn can be translucent.

22nd October 2007, 11:46 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Rhino horn can be translucent & bright in sunlight etc at any age. Depends on the individual horn. Goat,cow or buffalo horn can be translucent to on occasions. At least it looks like a real blade as well. The amber jambiyas dont seem to be real amber to me. More a plastic resin mix. Spiral

23rd October 2007, 01:51 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you all for your replies. Robert and Fernando, amber was something I had not considered and could be a possibility. The seller describes the hilt as being 'some sort of bone'...but due to the colouration and 'apparent' translucence, assumed rhino a high possibility. Hi Lew, thank you for the additional info, I agree totally that the silverwork on mine has less quality than the really nice examples you posted. Hi Spiral, the pics do suggest that the blade is 'real' ( I do hope you are right) and it was this thought that I took the risk and bought it. I understand that a number of recent blades were made with two sheets of steel welded together (I assume that the central ridge contour is 'pressed' on each sheet and gives the illusion of a solid central spine when the two halves are joined) Also I was under the impression that the translucence of Rhino horn improves with age and handling.....thanks for putting me 'straight'. I will post a better description and pics when it arrives. Kind Regards David

23rd October 2007, 10:30 PM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Spiral Are you suggesting that since my jambiya's rhino horn is dark and opaque that the original owner had dirty hands . Lew

26th October 2007, 02:13 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Dagger received today.......very disappointing The Rhino / amber is in fact resin/plastic it has a grainy, marbled effect but was confirmed by the 'hot pin' test. The blade.....is composed of two metal sheets The 'patination' of the blade surface really looks convincing, I think, that perhaps the steel has a quantity of re-cycled metal of differing grades which adds to the illusion. The 'silver' banding on the hilt (just before the blade) has partially loosened and I can see printed wording on the reverse side, looks like a section of a tin can coated with some dull, silvery material on the 'facing side'. Who said "the camera never lies....." Its a real shame (sham ), I was really looking forward to restoring this knife and scabbard ..... with no redeeming features it would be a complete waste of time and effort. Hopefully, other formites will 'learn' from my mistake... Never mind....... nothing ventured....nothing gained Regards David

26th October 2007, 06:46 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I'm so sorry you got screwed. This happened to me in receiving a "yemeni jambiya". Was not pleased.

26th October 2007, 06:56 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thats a shame, Id have taken a chance on it as well if it was cheap... Lots of them have plastic handles. Including most that are sold as amber..... Buffalo horn is a lot more common than rhino as well. Spiral

26th October 2007, 07:22 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Amber is resin, a hot pin will sink into it. Amber is affected by perfume or alcohol but do not think plastic is, well not to the same extent. By and large I feel these really are not worth going after unless you can handle them. I also speak from experience. I think in all the years collesting I have only seen three or four worth anything near the money asked.

26th October 2007, 07:39 PM	#17
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I am so sorry David. I wish for you that it wouldn't have happened. I dye a little when it happens to me. Can't you stuff it back? Fernando

26th October 2007, 07:56 PM	#18
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you for your replies, This was a very cheap purchase (the seller has kindly offered to refund half the money ) and I have learned valuable lessons which will help me prevent more costly mistakes ......hopefully The fumes from the hot pin test smelt 'plasticky' .....I would imagine that amber would give off a more aromatic aroma Kind Regards David

26th October 2007, 10:40 PM	#19
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Just because it's a cheap jambiya doesn't mean it is not a genuine ethnographic item. The population of Yemen was 7 million in the 60's and has grown to 22 million today. Every man wears one. That's several million jambiyas. They are like ties for Westeners and once you get out of the wealthy antique class, most impoverished Yemeni men(who make up the majority of the population) want a nice new shiny one. So, there are millions of them floating around. Bakelite amber has been around since the 1800's. I have never heard of genuine amber (fossilized tree sap) in a jambiya handle anyway. A piece real amber that size would be worth a lot of money compared to the going rate for a jambiya. Also, the majority of the blades are made with two layers of sheet metal, they are for looks, not use and this makes them lighter to wear all day. I used to watch them made in the souq. The maker would hammer out the two sides, braze the halves together and then burnish the welds. Antique jambiyas of any quality are very rare nowadays and new ones are made to imitate the older jambiyas, even for the locals to buy.

26th October 2007, 11:09 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Micheal for putting this Jambiya into a social context, I imagined that ...because of the knife's cultural significance, (I believed) that many would be passed down through the generations. The population 'explosion' that you mentioned would certainly explain the demand...and lack of 'heirloom' Jambiya's. The bakerlite amber, which I am assuming is the material this Jambiya's hilt is made, is quite convincing, it has a 'grainy' structure with varying translucence and is not unattractive. Regards David

26th October 2007, 11:40 PM	#22
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting Micheal Ethnographic items indeed then! Not weapons though, when they have hollow blades? just dress items? many Thousands are made of rhino Fernando, millions are buffalo or plastic. Thats a very nice looking one you have there....very nice.... Spiral

27th October 2007, 02:17 AM	#23
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Katana, The treasuring antiques is a relativly new concept to the bulk of the population in arabia. The majority of yemenis were dirt poor and wanted a new looking jambiya. Rhino horn was for the rich. In the sixties they would decorate the jambiyas and bandoliers with thumb tacks, bits of foil from cigarette wrappers and the most popular jambiya scabbard cover seemed to be green plastic. It was during the seventies when about a million yemenis working in Saudi Arabia and the gulf states were remiting hundreds of millions home that the common man could afford rhino. This resulted in extensive poaching and a drop in black rhino population from over 100 thousand to about 2500 today. Because Yemen supported Saddam Hussain with the invasion of Kuwait, Yemenis were expelled and the cash flow stopped. Which is good for the rhinos.