Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th October 2019, 01:37 PM   #1
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 801
Default Shamshir with an interesting stamp on the blade

Hi guys

Many years ago, Arzi Yarom sold this shamshir.
Maybe one of the forum participants bought this shamshire? Or maybe someone has a shamshire in the collection with a similar stamp on the blade?

Thanks in advance
Attached Images
   
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 10:53 AM   #2
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,670
Default

Hi Mahratt,

I think you should tell us more about the stamp: is it from Mazar i-Sharif or from Bukhara?
Thanks

Kubur
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2019, 01:00 PM   #3
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Mahratt,

I think you should tell us more about the stamp: is it from Mazar i-Sharif or from Bukhara?
Thanks

Kubur


Hi Kubur.

I am sure that this is part stamp of arsenal (factory workshops) in Kabul "Mashin Khana". Here are examples of these hallmarks in comparison with the stamp on the shamshir.
The arsenal in Mazar-i-Sharif was exclusively engaged in the repair of artillery guns and rifles. In Bukhara, there has never been a mass center for the production of weapons in which stamps similar to that stamp are placed, which we see on shamshir and other objects from Afghanistan.
Attached Images
 
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 05:30 AM   #4
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 801
Default

Has anyone seen such shamshir with this stamp?
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 11:05 AM   #5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,364
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt
Hi Kubur.

I am sure that this is part stamp of arsenal (factory workshops) in Kabul "Mashin Khana". Here are examples of these hallmarks in comparison with the stamp on the shamshir.
The arsenal in Mazar-i-Sharif was exclusively engaged in the repair of artillery guns and rifles. In Bukhara, there has never been a mass center for the production of weapons in which stamps similar to that stamp are placed, which we see on shamshir and other objects from Afghanistan.




Thank you for a great article here... but I think the arsenal at mashin khana made weapons as well as repairing. They also copied a lot of European weapons and munitions...as well as non weapon equipments.

From the Gutenberg please see ~

Quote" The mashin khana was initially organized around machinery for the production of weapons and military supplies, and by 1891 separate workshops were producing rifles, cannons, ammunition, and boots. However, the workshops were continually expanded to encompass activities far beyond the production of military supplies alone. During Abd al-Rahman's reign the mashin khana was broadened to include stamping, dyeing, minting, lithographic printing, and weaving equipment, as well as flour mills, saw mills, distilleries, tanneries, steam hammers, and lathes. New machines constantly arrived in Kabul, and existing ones were continually upgraded and refurbished. In the late 1890s about one hundred machines, between four and five thousand local workers, and dozens of European and Indian experts and foremen employed at the mashin khana were churning out agricultural implements, candles, carpets, clothes, coats, coins, food, glass, soap, kilns, liquor, needles, paper, and soda pop, in addition to weaponry, most of which imitated European models.

As local craftsmen were incorporated into the mashin khana the chains of authority and gradations of prestige within Kabul's artisanal communities were transformed in significant ways. Europeans contracted by Abd al-Rahman were grafted over the local social hierarchies and institutions mentioned earlier. Indian mistaris, the subcontracted assistants to the British mechanics and engineers employed at the mashin khana by Abd al-Rahman, were also interposed over and within the existing chains of authority, expertise, and resource management of local artisanal groups.

The Europeans, Indians, and Afghans appointed by and responsible to Abd al-Rahman also influenced the residual Kabul bazaar production regimen by periodically siphoning human, technical, and material resources from those labor communities that were not fully encompassed by the workshop project. The mashin khana was the institutional locus for the reconfiguration of social relations within and between the various local labor communities in Kabul and beyond, as well as between those professional networks and the Durrani state.''Unquote.


In respect of the stamp I think this contains the crossed cannon barrels at the base of the mashin khana stamp...and the faded religious structure can be seen supporting that supposition. many weapons were taken on board and stamped at mashin khana not just the weapons made there...stamped coinage is also an indicator of style in this regard see below~
Attached Images
  
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 12:36 PM   #6
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 7,687
Default

It seems when I first got one of the Afghan military sabers, of the form described in discussions here, and in Dima's excellent book, it was in the late 90s. These swords were little known then and I was told it was a 'bring back' from Afghanistan from 70s during covert operations there.

It was then said that the mark on the blade (as seen here with the Mashin Khana marks) was from the 'arsenal' at Mazir-i-Sharif. It was not until years later that I found the Mashin Khana detail, and it seems in my earlier research it had been said it was Kabul only. While the marking depicted the Blue Mosque at Mazir I Sharif, it seems it was indicated to me there was no arsenal there.
This made sense to me as Kabul of course was the government center of Afghanistan, while Mazir I Sharif was a most important religious center.

Thank you Ibrahiim for the excellent excerpt from the material on the Mashin Khana, which is if course included in Dima's excellent book. It does make sense that weaponry would be repaired in further locations such as Mazir I Sharif, but I am curious on the use of a stamp, which must have been 'cold' stamped. In this case it is incomplete of course, so wonder if perhaps a 'just cannon' stamp may have been used, or the rest so shallow it was worn away.

Dima, the styling of the hilt resembles shamshirs I have seen many years ago , and with such motif in the center of the guard, which were described to me as Afghan.

It is curious to see a shamshir with this mark, but makes perfect sense as it seems weaponry for Afghan forces or officials was varied.
Fascinating example of the rugged type weapons from these regions, and its being a shamshir all the more intriguing.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 12:38 PM   #7
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 801
Default

Ibrahiim, You are absolutely right about Mashin Khana. I wrote about all this in my book, which Jim so kindly presented on the forum. Itís just that exactly edged weapons were made at the factory Mashin Khana.


Jim, thanks for the detailed answer While I started writing my short answer, you already wrote much better!
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 01:09 PM   #8
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,670
Default

I dont know if you have seen this lovely belt....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=afghan+belt
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2019, 01:18 PM   #9
mahratt
Member
 
mahratt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Russia
Posts: 801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
I dont know if you have seen this lovely belt....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=afghan+belt


Nice belt. And here is one of my Afghan belts
Attached Images
   
mahratt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:53 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.