Persian ? Powder Flask and Ramrod

Norman McCormick · 14th August 2021, 04:52 PM

Hi,
All steel powder flask 7 1/2 inches at the widest and the ramrod at 13 1/2 inches is obviously pistol sized. I've seen these tagged as Persian, Ottoman, Balkan and Indo-Persian and I have no doubt there is cross cultural form and usage, if anyone can give me a more definitive attribution I would be grateful. The timeline I would suspect is somewhere in the 19thC. The hanger is to a degree incomplete i.e the leather loss on one of the strands and the lack of an end tassel/bauble on another. On the other hand I haven't found many of these complete with hanger and ramrod although I don't know if flask and ramrod were always or mostly carried together en suite as it were. Thanks for your assistance as always.
Regards,
Norman.

Oliver Pinchot · 14th August 2021, 05:50 PM

It's Ottoman military, Norman. It appears c. 1830s and the type remains in production into the late 19th century.

Norman McCormick · 14th August 2021, 06:06 PM

Hi Oliver,
Ottoman military, that's a nice surprise. Thanks as always for your help.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 14th August 2021, 06:30 PM

Nice example, Norman.

... with a system similar to mine, but which was told (15 years ago) to have a completely different provenance.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...o+powder+flask

Kubur · 14th August 2021, 09:02 PM

I confirm what colleagues said, Ottoman military, pictured in the Book Description of Egypt, end of 18th early 19th c.
They are common, because military...

Norman McCormick · 15th August 2021, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Nice example, Norman.

... with a system similar to mine, but which was told (15 years ago) to have a completely different provenance.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...o+powder+flask

Hi Fernando,
An interesting piece. I guess the system was widespread re the functionality and the form varied from place to place.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 15th August 2021, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I confirm what colleagues said, Ottoman military, pictured in the Book Description of Egypt, end of 18th early 19th c.
They are common, because military...

Hi Kubur,
Thanks for the info. Re the availability of these. They don't appear to be common where I am but it is possibly different for you. I can only find two more examples with the hanger and ramrod both from a German auction house, photos attached.
My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 15th August 2021, 04:55 PM

Hi Norman

Congratulations. Nice find. I agree with others here, Ottoman Military with a plain, robust built priming flask and suma rod. The flasks show up often. The plain loading rods, not so often. And the suspension cords much less often.
To me, it looks like both the flask and rod were indeed used as a team. Possibly both were cleaned sometime in the past, as there doesn't appear to be much patina remaining. But none the less a nice set. By the wear on the leather and cord it appears this set was carried in action. And of course, that's what they were made for. LOL
If you look at the last two photos you posted, the photo on the left shows the suspension cord un-knotted more showing a larger loop. I can easily picture this loop suspended around the neck with the flask and rod positioned about the middle of the torso, and the suma rod tucked into the sash when not in use.
This makes sense while on horseback for reloading pistols.
Again, nice find. This would display great with a single or pair of Ottoman pistols. Nice addition to your collection.

Rick

rickystl · 15th August 2021, 05:16 PM

Here is the same flask from my collection. Seems they were all made identical.
Unless damaged, most of these military flasks you encounter today are still in working order. Which attests to the simple, robust build quality. In fact, I've used mine at the range to load pistols.
When I first obtained it, it was missing the fill plug on the back end. So, for a plug, I located an original top screw from an India pattern Brown Bess lock that had the bottom part of the threads broken off. I had new threads cut on the shortened screw to match the threads of the flask, and it was complete again and ready for use. The patina of the screw was a close match to the flask.

Rick

Kubur · 16th August 2021, 07:32 AM

For your archives, guys
the drawing from the book that I mentionned.

rickystl · 16th August 2021, 03:49 PM

Hi Kubur

Thanks for that last detail. I'll add this to my library. Notice the cord can be adjusted as desired.

Rick

eftihis · 17th August 2021, 06:54 AM

The same!

Norman McCormick · 18th August 2021, 12:28 PM

Hi Rick, Eftihis and Kubur,
Thanks for the info and extra images it's much appreciated.
My Regards,
Norman.

14th August 2021, 04:52 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Persian ? Powder Flask and Ramrod Hi, All steel powder flask 7 1/2 inches at the widest and the ramrod at 13 1/2 inches is obviously pistol sized. I've seen these tagged as Persian, Ottoman, Balkan and Indo-Persian and I have no doubt there is cross cultural form and usage, if anyone can give me a more definitive attribution I would be grateful. The timeline I would suspect is somewhere in the 19thC. The hanger is to a degree incomplete i.e the leather loss on one of the strands and the lack of an end tassel/bauble on another. On the other hand I haven't found many of these complete with hanger and ramrod although I don't know if flask and ramrod were always or mostly carried together en suite as it were. Thanks for your assistance as always. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

15th August 2021, 05:16 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Here is the same flask from my collection. Seems they were all made identical. Unless damaged, most of these military flasks you encounter today are still in working order. Which attests to the simple, robust build quality. In fact, I've used mine at the range to load pistols. When I first obtained it, it was missing the fill plug on the back end. So, for a plug, I located an original top screw from an India pattern Brown Bess lock that had the bottom part of the threads broken off. I had new threads cut on the shortened screw to match the threads of the flask, and it was complete again and ready for use. The patina of the screw was a close match to the flask. Rick Attached Images

16th August 2021, 07:32 AM	#10
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	For your archives, guys the drawing from the book that I mentionned. Attached Images

17th August 2021, 06:54 AM	#12
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 500	This is my sample. The same! Attached Images

14th August 2021, 05:50 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	It's Ottoman military, Norman. It appears c. 1830s and the type remains in production into the late 19th century.

14th August 2021, 06:06 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Oliver, Ottoman military, that's a nice surprise. Thanks as always for your help. My Regards, Norman.

14th August 2021, 06:30 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Nice example, Norman. ... with a system similar to mine, but which was told (15 years ago) to have a completely different provenance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...o+powder+flask

14th August 2021, 09:02 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I confirm what colleagues said, Ottoman military, pictured in the Book Description of Egypt, end of 18th early 19th c. They are common, because military...

15th August 2021, 04:55 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Norman Congratulations. Nice find. I agree with others here, Ottoman Military with a plain, robust built priming flask and suma rod. The flasks show up often. The plain loading rods, not so often. And the suspension cords much less often. To me, it looks like both the flask and rod were indeed used as a team. Possibly both were cleaned sometime in the past, as there doesn't appear to be much patina remaining. But none the less a nice set. By the wear on the leather and cord it appears this set was carried in action. And of course, that's what they were made for. LOL If you look at the last two photos you posted, the photo on the left shows the suspension cord un-knotted more showing a larger loop. I can easily picture this loop suspended around the neck with the flask and rod positioned about the middle of the torso, and the suma rod tucked into the sash when not in use. This makes sense while on horseback for reloading pistols. Again, nice find. This would display great with a single or pair of Ottoman pistols. Nice addition to your collection. Rick

16th August 2021, 03:49 PM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,621	Hi Kubur Thanks for that last detail. I'll add this to my library. Notice the cord can be adjusted as desired. Rick

18th August 2021, 12:28 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Rick, Eftihis and Kubur, Thanks for the info and extra images it's much appreciated. My Regards, Norman.