Choora for comment

G. Mansfield · 18th November 2016, 10:44 PM

Hello all. As for my first post to the site, I'm excited to show this beautiful choora that finally came. It took two months of struggling to cross the atlantic from the Isle of Wight due to UK shipping restrictions on "weapons." I have been on the site for about a year now to gain some foundation of knowledge though I have been collecting full time in that sense, and on & off the last 6 years in world antiquities, which is how I became interested in the ethnographic arms game.

Besides my new introduction, back to the subject now... Immediately the intricate design grabbed my attention. My question is regarding the age. Late 19th or early 20th? Also I'm having a hard time distinguishing the medium of the scales. The age cracks lead me to think ivory, but possibly bone? The last inquiry is about the small chain bell-like piece at the base of the hilt. Does anybody know what the function of this piece was. I've noticed that some choora's have it and some do not whether they are just missing or serve some kind of tribal, kinship, or ranking purpose? As this is my first choora, any comments, questions, or concerns would be appreciated.

Thank You
-Geoff

mariusgmioc · 20th November 2016, 08:52 AM

Very nice example albeit not so old I guess.

The scales might be ivory but most likely bone. There isn't enouh detail to say for sure.

kronckew · 20th November 2016, 09:07 AM

looks somewhat similar to mine, the aluminum spacers on the grip are likely from recycled aircraft, as are mine so i'd say ours are early to mid 20th. the dangles on the pommel are decorative as far as i know. mine are red coral on silver wire. my scales appear to be ***** (i plead the 5th). the white metal suspension bar on my all brass scabbard (wood interior), with the two copper rings is aluminum as well.

mariusgmioc · 20th November 2016, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

looks somewhat similar to mine, the aluminum spacers on the grip are likely from recycled aircraft, as are mine so i'd say ours are early to mid 20th. the dangles on the pommel are decorative as far as i know. mine are red coral on silver wire. my scales appear to be ***** (i plead the 5th). the white metal suspension bar on my all brass scabbard (wood interior), with the two copper rings is aluminum as well.

Hello,

Why the "*****"?!

PS: Lovely example!

kronckew · 20th November 2016, 03:58 PM

certain groups have a tendency to confiscate certain whiteish toothy products and auction houses have been known to tear the ivo..er bone off of art objects that happen to be weapons, thus destroying their value. it's bone i tell you, bone, if anyone asks.CITES has no respect for age or value. most auction houses cannot withstand a fine or prosecution, so they can knuckle under...

G. Mansfield · 20th November 2016, 05:02 PM

Kronckew, I have seen your choora in a previous thread and much like the blade motifs. I have a passion for aesthetic detail such as these. And the holdup wasn't exactly in customs. The auction house provided shipping on their lots. This lot though, they refused to ship through the Royal Mail due to being a "weapon". After winning and quickly paying they then did not answer any of my emails until I finally just called and they explained other methods of international shipping. At that point I did my part and it was here in Pennsylvania in 2 days. As for the scales, if they are of ivory, the auction house did not know. They listed as a "Middle eastern dagger with bone handle" I don't think they even knew exactly what they were selling, just a general ME dagger. As for the general description that they gave, I'm not entirely bought on the bone aspect after seeing it in first person but I could be wrong.

Mariusgmioc, I've located a thread from earlier this year about another choora and the ivory question. As for the rings that you had mentioned, do you think that photos 2 and 3 of this choora could be parallel with 2nd example photo that you have posted in that thread?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=choora

Ian · 21st November 2016, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. Mansfield

... As for the scales, if they are of ivory, the auction house did not know. They listed as a "Middle eastern dagger with bone handle" I don't think they even knew exactly what they were selling, just a general ME dagger. As for the general description that they gave, I'm not entirely bought on the bone aspect after seeing it in first person but I could be wrong. ...

I think the Auction House probably knew that the scales were ivory and the "bone" description was inserted to avoid the legal implications of CITES that cover the sale and shipment of ivory and other endangered species artefacts. You are lucky that the Customs folks let it through. Other members here have had similar items confiscated.

Ian.

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

certain groups have a tendency to confiscate certain whiteish toothy products and auction houses have been known to tear the ivo..er bone off of art objects that happen to be weapons, thus destroying their value. it's bone i tell you, bone, if anyone asks.CITES has no respect for age or value. most auction houses cannot withstand a fine or prosecution, so they can knuckle under...

Aha... I know what you mean!

I had absolutely no problem selling and buying antique blades with ivory scales... wihin EU.

Also got some from US, but with a certificate attesting they are antique and not recently tampered with ... albeit this did not happen very recently.

As with regards to the destroyed objects, it was not the auction house who destroyed them but their own moronic owners, in their rush for a quick solution to the problem. For them it was a much easier and definitely a much quicker fix to simply mutilate the art objects and destry the ivory parts, than file a formal request and pay for an authorised expertise, then go through the whole lengthy legal procedure.

Anyhow, it is always better to be safe than sorry.

18th November 2016, 10:44 PM	#1
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 77	Choora for comment Hello all. As for my first post to the site, I'm excited to show this beautiful choora that finally came. It took two months of struggling to cross the atlantic from the Isle of Wight due to UK shipping restrictions on "weapons." I have been on the site for about a year now to gain some foundation of knowledge though I have been collecting full time in that sense, and on & off the last 6 years in world antiquities, which is how I became interested in the ethnographic arms game. Besides my new introduction, back to the subject now... Immediately the intricate design grabbed my attention. My question is regarding the age. Late 19th or early 20th? Also I'm having a hard time distinguishing the medium of the scales. The age cracks lead me to think ivory, but possibly bone? The last inquiry is about the small chain bell-like piece at the base of the hilt. Does anybody know what the function of this piece was. I've noticed that some choora's have it and some do not whether they are just missing or serve some kind of tribal, kinship, or ranking purpose? As this is my first choora, any comments, questions, or concerns would be appreciated. Thank You -Geoff Attached Images

20th November 2016, 09:07 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	looks somewhat similar to mine, the aluminum spacers on the grip are likely from recycled aircraft, as are mine so i'd say ours are early to mid 20th. the dangles on the pommel are decorative as far as i know. mine are red coral on silver wire. my scales appear to be ***** (i plead the 5th). the white metal suspension bar on my all brass scabbard (wood interior), with the two copper rings is aluminum as well. Attached Images

20th November 2016, 08:52 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,870	Very nice example albeit not so old I guess. The scales might be ivory but most likely bone. There isn't enouh detail to say for sure.

20th November 2016, 03:58 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	certain groups have a tendency to confiscate certain whiteish toothy products and auction houses have been known to tear the ivo..er bone off of art objects that happen to be weapons, thus destroying their value. it's bone i tell you, bone, if anyone asks.CITES has no respect for age or value. most auction houses cannot withstand a fine or prosecution, so they can knuckle under...

20th November 2016, 05:02 PM	#6
G. Mansfield Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 77	Kronckew, I have seen your choora in a previous thread and much like the blade motifs. I have a passion for aesthetic detail such as these. And the holdup wasn't exactly in customs. The auction house provided shipping on their lots. This lot though, they refused to ship through the Royal Mail due to being a "weapon". After winning and quickly paying they then did not answer any of my emails until I finally just called and they explained other methods of international shipping. At that point I did my part and it was here in Pennsylvania in 2 days. As for the scales, if they are of ivory, the auction house did not know. They listed as a "Middle eastern dagger with bone handle" I don't think they even knew exactly what they were selling, just a general ME dagger. As for the general description that they gave, I'm not entirely bought on the bone aspect after seeing it in first person but I could be wrong. Mariusgmioc, I've located a thread from earlier this year about another choora and the ivory question. As for the rings that you had mentioned, do you think that photos 2 and 3 of this choora could be parallel with 2nd example photo that you have posted in that thread? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=choora