Help with ID

[Peter Dekker]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With the octagonal escutcheon on the guard of this sword, I am inclined to think perhaps it is intended to represent the Ka'bah, which among other things is regarded as the Qu'ranic symbol of paradise. As Sumatra is predominantly Muslim, perhaps this might be the intended representation.

The Ka'bah is apparently often used in Islamic architecture, and of course various material culture. It seems in many elements of arms decoration, architectural features serve as inspiration for their design.

As noted in earlier discussion, this escutcheon does not seem particularly ergonomically friendly, but then neither is the hilt of the kastane. These are intended as court or dress type accoutrements and not as primarily combat weapons.

As far as I have seen, the octagonal escutcheon on this example is the only one I have seen on sword hilts, and it would be interesting to see the use of this symbol on other hilts or decoration.

You may well be right in its symbolic meaning.

For some reason, the various people of Sumatran came up with a number of weapons -including actual user grade types- that do not seem to be very ergonomic to us. A good example is the sikin panjang with pointy crowns that holds anything but nice, but several survive with fighting damage in the blades. (See: https://www.mandarinmansion.com/item...-sikin-panjang)

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Peter for bringing up this thread, as well as for the brilliant entries from items on your site. Reading them is always a learning experience.

I agree, these embellished hilts are not typically very ergonomic, but in situations may have been used accordingly. Often weapons which have been 'collected' and held away in the holdings of people have become the unfortunate victims of curious wielders or inappropriate utilitarian use.

I recall one gent who had asked me about a sword he had, which I told him was a unique Caucasian shashka (we were on the phone). I told him it was an extraordinary example and its approximate value....he quickly yelled at his son, in the back yard whacking weeds with it..to bring it in!!!

Obviously that is not always the case, but it does seem to explain some instances, otherwise, in a pinch, any weapon, even embellished court weapons may have seen true action, as seems the case with the examples you have entered.

Will, interesting note on the date/year on these VOC blades. Actually 1776 is an unusual year as far as I have seen, and most of these years range from mid to late 1700s. The configurations are pretty much the same aligned with the VOC. Either above or below are the initials of the kamer (chamber) of the pertinent VOC port...…….there were 6, the most prevalent being Amsterdam represented by capital A.
The others were Hoorn, Rotterdam, Enkhuizen, Delft, and Middleburg ...which is the case with the sword blade in the OP here.

It seems these VOC blades were produced in Solingen, and sent 'up river' to the ports in Netherlands, where they were either assembled with hilts, or in many cases, shipped out as cargo (and ballast) to East Indies ports where they became available as spare parts or trade items.
The men employed by VOC were required to purchase their own swords so these used by them may have often been freely traded and replaced.

It seems that the Amsterdam VOC blades were most common, followed by Middelburg and Rotterdam. The other chambers are less prevalent, and it seems there was one with a 'Z' (no, not Zorro!) which may have meant Zeeland, which was the province Middelburg was in.

[Helleri]

Looks like a Prussian officer's saber.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Helleri

Looks like a Prussian officer's saber.

Thank you for posting Helleri. There are far too many readers out there who simply do not wish to post or venture observations or ideas on items being discussed. As you have observed, the lion head was used in Prussia, as well as a number of other nations. It is hard to decide which influenced whom, but whatever the case, the similarities are often profoundly notable.
While this appears to be Dutch, or that is in the realm of the VOC, as has been discussed, your note is well based.

[Helleri]

Yeah... Well I mean it really looks like one. The shape of the knuckle guard. Angle of the hilt. The langets. The blade itself. Lion head is a little more stylized and differently portrayed than I'd expect. But aside from that it's a dead ringer. There were also Hessians fighting for the British in the revolutionary war. Alongside that very interesting date. I mean I'm sure you can see where the mind wants to wander off to.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks very much Peter for bringing up this thread, as well as for the brilliant entries from items on your site. Reading them is always a learning experience.

I agree, these embellished hilts are not typically very ergonomic, but in situations may have been used accordingly. Often weapons which have been 'collected' and held away in the holdings of people have become the unfortunate victims of curious wielders or inappropriate utilitarian use.

I recall one gent who had asked me about a sword he had, which I told him was a unique Caucasian shashka (we were on the phone). I told him it was an extraordinary example and its approximate value....he quickly yelled at his son, in the back yard whacking weeds with it..to bring it in!!!

Obviously that is not always the case, but it does seem to explain some instances, otherwise, in a pinch, any weapon, even embellished court weapons may have seen true action, as seems the case with the examples you have entered.

Will, interesting note on the date/year on these VOC blades. Actually 1776 is an unusual year as far as I have seen, and most of these years range from mid to late 1700s. The configurations are pretty much the same aligned with the VOC. Either above or below are the initials of the kamer (chamber) of the pertinent VOC port...…….there were 6, the most prevalent being Amsterdam represented by capital A.
The others were Hoorn, Rotterdam, Enkhuizen, Delft, and Middleburg ...which is the case with the sword blade in the OP here.

It seems these VOC blades were produced in Solingen, and sent 'up river' to the ports in Netherlands, where they were either assembled with hilts, or in many cases, shipped out as cargo (and ballast) to East Indies ports where they became available as spare parts or trade items.
The men employed by VOC were required to purchase their own swords so these used by them may have often been freely traded and replaced.

It seems that the Amsterdam VOC blades were most common, followed by Middelburg and Rotterdam. The other chambers are less prevalent, and it seems there was one with a 'Z' (no, not Zorro!) which may have meant Zeeland, which was the province Middelburg was in.

Hello Jim, Middelburg was indeed an important place .. Wikipedia states Quote" Later, in the 17th century (the Dutch Golden Age), Middelburg became, after Holland's metropolis Amsterdam, the most important center for the East India Company of Republic of the Seven United Netherlands (VOC) or Dutch East India Company.

Middelburg played an important role in the 17th century slave trade".Unquote.