19thc Indo-Persian or 20thc tourist?

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO it is tourist

Thanks Stu. You may be right, but three things bother me about it being tourist: 1) it is not as "pretty" as most of the tourist items I have seen, and 2) it shows significant wear, and 3) I have never seen another like it. If it was tourist or replica wouldn't they have made more than one?

I wonder if it is not a fake?

Thanks again for the help. Much appreciated.

Harry

mariusgmioc · 11th April 2016, 05:21 PM

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

Thanks. It is an odd piece. It has a good blade. Hopefully someone can provide a translation. I believe the script and makers mark are both Arabic.

kahnjar1 · 11th April 2016, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?").

Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian .

Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey.

But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

Hi Harry,
As Marius says, the stamp on the blade COULD suggest non tourist but then there are many "cartouches" and false stamps on blades of items which ARE tourist. The "engraving" on the other side of the blade looks a bit rough compared with the stamp.
Your comment re "significant wear" is correct, but often the castings are of poor quality and created in the first place to look old and worn.....but what about the leather?? on the scabbard which looks very new from the pics.
Finally just because one has not seen another piece like it does not mean that it is original.
I also would be interested as to what you define as "FAKE" as opposed to "tourist". To me the term is used to describe an item which is made as a copy of an original so that large amounts of money can be made by selling it as an original. I do not see something like this with relatively low return being made as a fake.
I reserve my original decision.
Stu

Kubur · 11th April 2016, 09:26 PM

Hi Harry,

I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake...
I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions.

Best,
Kubur

Kubur · 11th April 2016, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Harry,

I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake...
I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions.

Best,
Kubur

I zoomed on the blade and I'm almost sure that's not Arabic, it's an attempt to look like but it's not Arabic. It's probably the same for the stamp...

Bob A · 11th April 2016, 10:10 PM

Brass fittings are deliberately worn down to appear old, but it's done too evenly.
Blade is far too new, with no real signs of age equivalent to the rest of the package.
I can't speak to origin, but it appears to me as a deliberate attempt to mislead.

harrywagner · 11th April 2016, 10:14 PM

Possibly. It might be one of the many Indian languages and not Arabic at all, or a combination of the two. I will post some better photos later today.

I consider an item a fake when it pretends to be something it is not (fake Rolex, newly manufactured "antique", etc.). And I agree that price can be a factor in determining if an item is a fake or real. However, I would excersise caution there. Enough people counterfeit $20 bills these days that many cashiers examine them before accepting them.

harrywagner · 12th April 2016, 12:50 AM

Hopefully these are better. Here is how the seller described it:

"5 3/8 curved d.e. blade. The front with large chiseled panel incorporating numerous Arabic or Hindi characters, likely identifying the owner and date. Reverse with crisp maker's mark. One piece horn hilt with white metal mounts. Black leather covered scabbard with matching WM mounts".

If it is a tourist item wouldn't you expect to see others similar to this occasionally? They would not make just one, right?

12th April 2016, 12:50 AM	#9
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Hopefully these are better. Here is how the seller described it: "5 3/8 curved d.e. blade. The front with large chiseled panel incorporating numerous Arabic or Hindi characters, likely identifying the owner and date. Reverse with crisp maker's mark. One piece horn hilt with white metal mounts. Black leather covered scabbard with matching WM mounts". If it is a tourist item wouldn't you expect to see others similar to this occasionally? They would not make just one, right? Attached Images

11th April 2016, 05:21 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	The stamped maker's mark on the blade makes me doubt that is a tourist thing, or a "fake" (by the way, can you define "fake?"). Moreover, I doubt that is Indo-Persian . Judging by the shape and workmanship, I am more inclined to say it is Syria or Turkey. But I am definitely far from being a specialist so take my opinion more like a guess.

11th April 2016, 09:26 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Harry, I agree with all the things said above, the blade, Tourist and not fake... I think you should give us more pictures of the blade and inscriptions. Best, Kubur

11th April 2016, 10:10 PM	#7
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 415	Brass fittings are deliberately worn down to appear old, but it's done too evenly. Blade is far too new, with no real signs of age equivalent to the rest of the package. I can't speak to origin, but it appears to me as a deliberate attempt to mislead.

11th April 2016, 10:14 PM	#8
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Possibly. It might be one of the many Indian languages and not Arabic at all, or a combination of the two. I will post some better photos later today. I consider an item a fake when it pretends to be something it is not (fake Rolex, newly manufactured "antique", etc.). And I agree that price can be a factor in determining if an item is a fake or real. However, I would excersise caution there. Enough people counterfeit $20 bills these days that many cashiers examine them before accepting them.