Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd July 2016, 05:47 PM   #1
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default Mystery Dagger???

A friend of mine recently asked be about this dagger, which he thought was from the South Pacific. It looks more African to me, but not quite and i just don't know. The blade is ferric as it attracts a magnet. Any ideas out there?
Attached Images
   
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 06:05 PM   #2
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

It looks like a recycled spearhead and the spear part doesn't say 'Africa' when I look at it.
I'll bet that there are two cultures represented here, possibly even American folk art for the hilt.

Better pictures....etc.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2016, 06:33 PM   #3
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Well, it's not mine Rick, so these are the best photos i have. I do think that a mixed cultural thing is possible. The hilt does seem to have a good patina so this does appear to have a bit of age to it. The wrap looks more recent, bit the rest looks pre-WWII to me.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 04:24 PM   #4
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Any other ideas or comments on origin from anyone i could take back to my friend?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 05:04 PM   #5
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,860
Default

Hello David,

As I am no expert, I refrained myself from making any comments, but the moment I saw this "dagger" I thought that it looks like a spear tip with a handle attached.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 05:54 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,618
Default

Highly plausible .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 06:41 PM   #7
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default

Probably a red herring, but the carved head is a bit like Inuit work and the twine binding is the sort of thing a sailor might do. Maybe a hunter/trapper's weapon, or a whaler's ??
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2016, 08:29 PM   #8
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,728
Default

I have absolutely no idea about this , but from the pics it LOOKS as if the guy is wearing a peaked cap, but without a side view it is hard to tell.......
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2016, 04:56 AM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I have the same impression. Weren't there similar handles from Luzon?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2016, 08:51 PM   #10
DaveA
Member
 
DaveA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 413
Lightbulb Bulul figure?

The figure on the hilt resembles carvings of "Bulul", the rice God of the Ifugao tribe on Luzon. These sometimes ornament Ifugao daggers. I have not seen this particular hilt style used by Ifugao, with the wrapping.

Maybe this is a lead for you. Good luck, and please post any new information you find!

Dave A
DaveA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th July 2016, 11:19 PM   #11
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

So i hear a few votes for Luzon, at least on the hilt. Can anyone point to a Luzon spear head of similar form? I'm just trying to pin this down to a particular region for my friend.
The wrapping could have been added at anytime and certainly seems like the youngest addition to the ensemble.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2016, 06:34 AM   #12
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,006
Default

While the Bulul (northern Luzon) suggestion is an interesting one, the head of the figure is less well defined than the vast majority of examples i have seen, especially in regard to the ears (which appear absent on the figure of the dagger in question). Bulul is often portrayed with very prominent ears (but not always).

Neither the grip nor the blade are obviously Ifugao work, so I'm skeptical of this origin. That said, I don't have a better suggestion.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2016, 07:21 PM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Hello David,

when I first have seen this unusual dagger was my impression similar to DaveA ones but again similar considerations like Ian seems to have I don't post my impression. Another resemblance I see also with Ano Deo figures from Timor, but again, something bothers me. I am unsure but could be indeed coming from SEA.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2016, 01:50 PM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,408
Default

Here a picture from The Met but this are from Flores instead of Timor.
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2016, 06:42 AM   #15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Or....going back to Bulul carvings...I seem to see a very large ear on #1 ...but need a side shot please... It would seem natural that such huge ears would wear smooth over time...(Oh Grandma what big ears you've got.)
Attached Images
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2016, 03:05 PM   #16
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
I have absolutely no idea about this , but from the pics it LOOKS as if the guy is wearing a peaked cap, but without a side view it is hard to tell.......
Stu
Stu:

That is a very astute observation and I think you are correct. This rang a bell for me. I now think that the hilt is indeed northern Luzon in origin -- not Ifugao, but rather Ilocano. There is a style of Ilocano knife featuring a Filipino with a peaked cap, presumably military. Such pommels can be found in brass, horn, or wood--the horn ones often have small white inserts for the eyes. There should be pictures on this site. I have several examples but they are all packed as a result of a recent move across country.

Some Ilocano knives are double edged daggers, but I agree that this one looks as though it could have started life as a spear. The wrapped hilt does look recent to me also.

Jose, do you have a picture of one of these Ilocano hilts that you could post?

Ian.

P.S. In a previous post, these caps were thought to be nautical in origin. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=418

Last edited by Ian; 12th July 2016 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Added P.S.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2016, 06:26 AM   #17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Please Note~ ... the kinnallogong or hat dance (Ilocano)
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2016, 06:53 AM   #18
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default

How about these two carved Inuit figures (in ivory) ? Note the similarity to the style of the heads...
Attached Images
  
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th July 2016, 07:41 AM   #19
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 4,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw
How about these two carved Inuit figures (in ivory) ? Note the similarity to the style of the heads...

Nice one Colin !
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.