Wire work axe

graeme gt · 28th September 2010, 04:39 PM

Hi Guys,What do you make of this is it Tsonga ? do you think they are weapons or a badge of rank ?

Tim Simmons · 28th September 2010, 07:08 PM

Very, very nice. I have an axe with a very similar shape blade but bronze. This example is perfect

!!!!

Lew · 28th September 2010, 09:20 PM

Wait a second I am wiping the drool off my key board

That is a nice example!

Ron Anderson · 29th September 2010, 01:12 AM

Beautiful.

graeme gt · 29th September 2010, 12:18 PM

Thanks guys i couldnt believe it when i saw it ,only seen them in books.

Ron Anderson · 30th September 2010, 12:43 AM

Strictly speaking, there is no traditional Tsonga culture to speak of.

Tsonga is the word describing ethnic Shangaan people who have migrated from Mozambique to South Africa. It is word that fits more ethnic Shangaan working in Johannesburg's gold mines. Many of these have in the last few decades settled permenantly in South Africa, but they do not have a tradition or identity as Tsonga that goes back for any real length of time.

I have no reason to think this axe isn't South African or, for that matter, Zulu.

But if it is Tsonga, then it may be more correct to describe it as Shangaan and from Mozambique not South Africa.

Ron Anderson · 30th September 2010, 05:35 AM

My feeling is that this is zulu. It's the brass knobs that lead me to think that. It recalls the hobnails found on old knobkerries.

Also, even though you do find this kind of wirework among Shona as well, it's more prevalent among the Nguni tribes (Shona are not Nguni speaking).

Shangaan/Tsonga are also not Nguni, though they have been influenced by Nguni at points in the past.

In terms of the balance of probabilities, I'd say the likelihood of this being zulu is about 70%. But it could be from other Nguni groups – and these are, Swazi, Ndebele, Pondo, Xhosa. Of all these, the Swazi are the most like the Zulu.

So, chances are this is either Zulu or Swazi.

Unsure about whether this was ever symbolic of rank or not. The knobkerries are certainly used as a mace to symbolise authority. Today they are predominantly carried by headmen or elders.

Tim Simmons · 30th September 2010, 09:59 AM

This perfect example that "graeme" shows us, along with Ron's homeland knowledge. Is a great opportunity to have a South African, indeed African axe frenzy, its been a long time.
This one is one of my most treasured items. A member here helped me secure this piece back in the days when I knew what money was. Simple elegant beauty not quite as perfect as graeme shows but you just got to love that bronze blade.
As to whether these are status pieces or fighting axes? They have working edges, they are not made to cut lumber but to inflict serious injuries to people fighting in little more than underpants. I think they are more than heavy enough to do this. I can just imagine a blow to the collar bone and arm joint making life just that little bit more difficult.

graeme gt · 30th September 2010, 11:16 AM

Very nice Tim,you are correct they would inflict considerable damage but i cant see your Joe Bloggs Zulu owning one of these babies.will post some more axe pics.

Ron Anderson · 1st October 2010, 12:24 AM

Hi Tim/Graeme

I would say that these are certainly fine, both pieces. Not your everyday Zulu axe.

Though Graeme's is finer, that bronze blade is something quite extraordinary I think for any African item.

I would think Graeme is right on this. These must have been carried by people of importance, but that doesn't mean they are strictly ceremonial pieces. Of course, both Zulu and Swazi are very big on their "traditional weapons" even today, so it's not at all a stretch to see these belonging to dignitaries, even royalty. But they wouldn't be traditional weapons if they were not functioning weapons, not in those societies.

My guess is that Graeme's in particular belonged to someone of importance, behaps royalty, or a chief. And Tim's is likewise of a quality that wouldn't be seen often.

I'm surprised at the bronze blade. I don't believe I've ever seen a bronze weapon from that part of the world. Iron, certainly. Steel, certainly.

Do either of you have any sense of what the age of your axe might be?

I would place them well into the era of white rule.

Ron Anderson · 1st October 2010, 12:26 AM

Hi Tim/Graeme

I would say that these are certainly fine, both pieces. Not your everyday Zulu axe.

Though Graeme's is finer, that bronze blade is something quite extraordinary I think for any African item.

I would think Graeme is right on this. These must have been carried by people of importance, but that doesn't mean they are strictly ceremonial pieces. Of course, both Zulu and Swazi are very big on their "traditional weapons" even today, so it's not at all a stretch to see these belonging to dignitaries, even royalty. But they wouldn't be traditional weapons if they were not functioning weapons, not in those societies.

My guess is that Graeme's in particular belonged to someone of importance, perhaps royalty, or a chief. And Tim's is likewise of a quality that wouldn't be seen often.

I'm surprised at the bronze blade. I don't believe I've ever seen a bronze weapon from that part of the world. Iron, certainly. Steel, certainly. Bronze –no.

And I can't ever recall seeing bronze Zulu (in fact, South African) artefacts or curios either.

Do either of you have any sense of what the age of your axe might be?

I would place them well into the era of white rule.

graeme gt · 1st October 2010, 04:36 PM

Thanks guys very informative you might like this one its a tour de force on the wirework front i think its older.

Ron Anderson · 2nd October 2010, 02:57 AM

Another very nice axe!

Definitely older.

I notice this wire isn't two-toned (two colours).

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2010, 07:09 PM

I have had this buried at the back of the toy box because at first glance it appears plain and dull. However on reappraisal and looking at the folding of the matal of the axe blade. It is clear that effort was key to forming this blade. An axe is a good weapon if steel is not the most abundant material to hand. I suspect this axe to be a throwing axe, but have not found any writing that mentions South African throwing axes. The reason I suspect this is that the blade is heavy and as the haft is short, does not feel comfortable to swing with any accurate control in one hand. Swing it to throw and it feels correct.

Ron Anderson · 5th October 2010, 09:24 PM

That's a very big toy box you've got their, Tim.

Will check up on throwing axes. Not too sure either. However, as you know, throwing knives are fairly common a little further north. And I've heard of the practice of throwing clubs.

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2010, 05:48 PM

Yes Ron, know about Southern African throwing clubs but not read anything about axes. Throwing spears and clubs, why not axes? I believe Zulu war was conducted with more than just a stabbing spear.

Ron Anderson · 6th October 2010, 11:22 PM

I do see what you mean.

For a land with such a relentlessly bloody history, and one that continues to be regarded as extremely violent, there does seem to be a shortage of weapons types. And of weapons innovation.

Contrast that to India – regarded as a spiritual haven, a land of enlightenment even. They had every conceivable weapon under the sun. Some of which boggle the imagination.

The problem I think is simply one of knowledge. I studied African history and the fact remains that it is still largely unwritten. History in South Africa in particular really begins with the European arrival.

South African societies have no writing tradition, but do have an oral tradition that hasn't really been explored all that deeply yet. The best way to assess whether or not a throwing axe was likely is to see whether other similar groups slightly north have throwing axes now. Basically, all Southern Africans (with the exception of Kalahari Bushmen) are Bantu-speaking. Their roots are much the same the same as other groups south of the equator. As people, they migrated fairly recently (it seems within the last 500 years or so).

28th September 2010, 04:39 PM	#1
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Wire work axe Hi Guys,What do you make of this is it Tsonga ? do you think they are weapons or a badge of rank ? Attached Images

30th September 2010, 09:59 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	This perfect example that "graeme" shows us, along with Ron's homeland knowledge. Is a great opportunity to have a South African, indeed African axe frenzy, its been a long time. This one is one of my most treasured items. A member here helped me secure this piece back in the days when I knew what money was. Simple elegant beauty not quite as perfect as graeme shows but you just got to love that bronze blade. As to whether these are status pieces or fighting axes? They have working edges, they are not made to cut lumber but to inflict serious injuries to people fighting in little more than underpants. I think they are more than heavy enough to do this. I can just imagine a blow to the collar bone and arm joint making life just that little bit more difficult. Attached Images

1st October 2010, 04:36 PM	#12
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Thanks guys very informative you might like this one its a tour de force on the wirework front i think its older. Attached Images

5th October 2010, 07:09 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Just keeping it rolling. I have had this buried at the back of the toy box because at first glance it appears plain and dull. However on reappraisal and looking at the folding of the matal of the axe blade. It is clear that effort was key to forming this blade. An axe is a good weapon if steel is not the most abundant material to hand. I suspect this axe to be a throwing axe, but have not found any writing that mentions South African throwing axes. The reason I suspect this is that the blade is heavy and as the haft is short, does not feel comfortable to swing with any accurate control in one hand. Swing it to throw and it feels correct. Attached Images

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28th September 2010, 07:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Very, very nice. I have an axe with a very similar shape blade but bronze. This example is perfect !!!!

28th September 2010, 09:20 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Wait a second I am wiping the drool off my key board That is a nice example!

29th September 2010, 01:12 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Beautiful.

29th September 2010, 12:18 PM	#5
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Thanks guys i couldnt believe it when i saw it ,only seen them in books.

30th September 2010, 12:43 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Strictly speaking, there is no traditional Tsonga culture to speak of. Tsonga is the word describing ethnic Shangaan people who have migrated from Mozambique to South Africa. It is word that fits more ethnic Shangaan working in Johannesburg's gold mines. Many of these have in the last few decades settled permenantly in South Africa, but they do not have a tradition or identity as Tsonga that goes back for any real length of time. I have no reason to think this axe isn't South African or, for that matter, Zulu. But if it is Tsonga, then it may be more correct to describe it as Shangaan and from Mozambique not South Africa.

30th September 2010, 05:35 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	My feeling is that this is zulu. It's the brass knobs that lead me to think that. It recalls the hobnails found on old knobkerries. Also, even though you do find this kind of wirework among Shona as well, it's more prevalent among the Nguni tribes (Shona are not Nguni speaking). Shangaan/Tsonga are also not Nguni, though they have been influenced by Nguni at points in the past. In terms of the balance of probabilities, I'd say the likelihood of this being zulu is about 70%. But it could be from other Nguni groups – and these are, Swazi, Ndebele, Pondo, Xhosa. Of all these, the Swazi are the most like the Zulu. So, chances are this is either Zulu or Swazi. Unsure about whether this was ever symbolic of rank or not. The knobkerries are certainly used as a mace to symbolise authority. Today they are predominantly carried by headmen or elders.

30th September 2010, 11:16 AM	#9
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	Very nice Tim,you are correct they would inflict considerable damage but i cant see your Joe Bloggs Zulu owning one of these babies.will post some more axe pics.

1st October 2010, 12:24 AM	#10
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim/Graeme I would say that these are certainly fine, both pieces. Not your everyday Zulu axe. Though Graeme's is finer, that bronze blade is something quite extraordinary I think for any African item. I would think Graeme is right on this. These must have been carried by people of importance, but that doesn't mean they are strictly ceremonial pieces. Of course, both Zulu and Swazi are very big on their "traditional weapons" even today, so it's not at all a stretch to see these belonging to dignitaries, even royalty. But they wouldn't be traditional weapons if they were not functioning weapons, not in those societies. My guess is that Graeme's in particular belonged to someone of importance, behaps royalty, or a chief. And Tim's is likewise of a quality that wouldn't be seen often. I'm surprised at the bronze blade. I don't believe I've ever seen a bronze weapon from that part of the world. Iron, certainly. Steel, certainly. Do either of you have any sense of what the age of your axe might be? I would place them well into the era of white rule.

1st October 2010, 12:26 AM	#11
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim/Graeme I would say that these are certainly fine, both pieces. Not your everyday Zulu axe. Though Graeme's is finer, that bronze blade is something quite extraordinary I think for any African item. I would think Graeme is right on this. These must have been carried by people of importance, but that doesn't mean they are strictly ceremonial pieces. Of course, both Zulu and Swazi are very big on their "traditional weapons" even today, so it's not at all a stretch to see these belonging to dignitaries, even royalty. But they wouldn't be traditional weapons if they were not functioning weapons, not in those societies. My guess is that Graeme's in particular belonged to someone of importance, perhaps royalty, or a chief. And Tim's is likewise of a quality that wouldn't be seen often. I'm surprised at the bronze blade. I don't believe I've ever seen a bronze weapon from that part of the world. Iron, certainly. Steel, certainly. Bronze –no. And I can't ever recall seeing bronze Zulu (in fact, South African) artefacts or curios either. Do either of you have any sense of what the age of your axe might be? I would place them well into the era of white rule.

2nd October 2010, 02:57 AM	#13
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Another very nice axe! Definitely older. I notice this wire isn't two-toned (two colours).

5th October 2010, 09:24 PM	#15
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	That's a very big toy box you've got their, Tim. Will check up on throwing axes. Not too sure either. However, as you know, throwing knives are fairly common a little further north. And I've heard of the practice of throwing clubs.

6th October 2010, 05:48 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,736	Yes Ron, know about Southern African throwing clubs but not read anything about axes. Throwing spears and clubs, why not axes? I believe Zulu war was conducted with more than just a stabbing spear.

6th October 2010, 11:22 PM	#17
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I do see what you mean. For a land with such a relentlessly bloody history, and one that continues to be regarded as extremely violent, there does seem to be a shortage of weapons types. And of weapons innovation. Contrast that to India – regarded as a spiritual haven, a land of enlightenment even. They had every conceivable weapon under the sun. Some of which boggle the imagination. The problem I think is simply one of knowledge. I studied African history and the fact remains that it is still largely unwritten. History in South Africa in particular really begins with the European arrival. South African societies have no writing tradition, but do have an oral tradition that hasn't really been explored all that deeply yet. The best way to assess whether or not a throwing axe was likely is to see whether other similar groups slightly north have throwing axes now. Basically, all Southern Africans (with the exception of Kalahari Bushmen) are Bantu-speaking. Their roots are much the same the same as other groups south of the equator. As people, they migrated fairly recently (it seems within the last 500 years or so).