|
16th May 2012, 03:58 PM
|
#31 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Hi Norman,
Good points! I am thinking that perhaps in this context (Austrian occupied Bosnia) that possibly this sabre might have been used in Bosniak auxiliary contingents? Austria was in many ways the pioneer of these kinds of units in the 18th century with thier Pandour regiments, made up of mostly Croatian and other Balkan as well as Hungarian troops. While the original units of von Trenck were disbanded the concept of auxiliary ethnic forces to units of the line remained very much in force and adopted by other imperial powers as well. This often led to 'exotic' weapon hybrids and I have seen examples of hirshfanger style yataghan bladed sabres presumed to be of French Illyrian units as well as yataghan bladed sabres in English cavalry hilts of 1796 pattern. Europe was intrigued by exotic 'oriental' blade forms and it seems that 'flamboyant' styles were often favored by the fashion conscious officers particularly in 'foreign' theater postings. This was also very much the case in the British Raj where British officers commanding native regiments often adopted thier weapon forms even modifying regulation patterns into fascinating hybrids. I have seen various regulation military pattern hilts on tulwar blades, and khanda and tulwar hilts on British regulation pattern blades. While the pattern may have ceased or of course been superceded among the line regiments, these changes typically had considerably delayed impact in colonial and occupied regions far from that perview. In British India for example, the M1796 light cavalry blade was very much favored by Indian troops and these were produced to supply them through the 19th century even though they had been obsolete officially since the 1820s. Also in colonial or occupied territories weapons in use continued for dramatically extended periods. In colonial New Spain weapons obsolete on the continent were even in use far beyond, and even the 17th and 18th century style swords were used well into the 19th century. Just more thoughts which might lend to possibilities for this interesting sabre. The presentation example shown in corroboration suggests that perhaps this blade form was used in some degree in these hilts. Very much looking forward to ideas and observations of others as well. All the best, Jim |
|
|
|
16th May 2012, 09:23 PM
|
#32 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi,
Text that accompanies the photo from the Higgins. Regards, Norman. Steel single 'Kilij' blade of European manufacture. Triangular section with flat back to false edge 1/3 of length from point. Both faces nearly identically etched with trophy groups, foliate scrolls, sun-in-splendor & crescent moon. Back of blade etched with undulating foliate tendril. All decoration with traces of gilding. Basket type hilt, probably model 1845, peirced with leaved tendrils & strong turned edge. Near pommel, guard pierced with 2 slots for sword knot. Below this are characters "FI" suggesting Ferdinand I whose reign ended in 1848. Modified bird's head pommel with rounded back strap & fish-skin wrapped wooden grip with twisted & plain brass wire. Inside of guard at base of grip are traces of what may be incised letters. Some brazed repairs on hilt. |
|
|
|
16th May 2012, 11:31 PM
|
#33 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
In checking in Wagner, p.420 (plate 50) shows the M1845 (much like the second example you show still in the Higgins.This has the same scroll basket guard and stepped pommel, but closer scrolled terminal with no parallel slots for swordknot.
P.422 (plate 52) confirms that your hilt is the M1850 which has these slots. It seems that the M1845 swords had curved blade with a distinct yelman very much like oriental blades have, though of course not as pronounced as this pala type profile. The M1850 blade seems to have been of the more European profile without the yelman. What is curious is the pommels on both these patterns have the stepped pommels, while yours seems to have a smooth 'birdhead'. Ferdinand I apparantly abdicated in 1848 to quell political unrest in the revolutionary events that year, and his nephew Franz Joseph took power. Could the F in the cypher as well represent him? He was in power into the 20th century. It certainly does complicate matters with a device or letters representing an Austrio-Hungarian monarch along with etched Islamic motif on the blade. The blade does not necessary have to be original to the hilt of course and in Wagner there is one example shown with earlier blade paired with later hilt , noted as that of irregular Austrian unit officer and suggesting heirloom blade. These and many of the swords illustrated in Wagner (1967)are in the Military History Museum in Prague, and when I checked with them on several back in the 1990s they were still there. Possibly thier staff might have more information. |
|
|
|
|
17th May 2012, 10:45 AM
|
#34 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your continued efforts to shed light on this sword. My photographs were not comprehensive and I apologise for giving the wrong impression re the pommel, it is stepped as this quick photo shows. The Prague connection seems worth pursuing and once I have taken some better photographs I will investigate that avenue further. Thanks once again for your interest. My Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
20th May 2012, 10:12 PM
|
#35 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi,
After a good wipe down and an oiling. Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
21st May 2012, 09:41 PM
|
#36 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Quote:
Hmmm, maybe I could have worded that a bit better!!!!!!   
|
|
|
|
|
|
6th June 2012, 11:18 PM
|
#37 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi,
I e-mailed the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Museum of Military History) in Vienna regarding the origins of this sword, the reply is below. I would certainly agree that the blade and hilt were not made originally for one another and the explanation that Mr Ilming gives is one that seems reasonable and obviously not unknown. If anyone else has a view, contradictory or otherwise, I would be pleased to hear from you. Regards to All, Norman. Dear Sir! I think the blade of this sword will have belonged to a different one, before it was mounted with the hilt it has now. The blade was perhaps part of a booty in the wars between Austria and the Ottoman Empire in the 18th century, and handed down in the family of the person who captured it, until it was used by one of his descendants in the combination you have now purchased. This happened quite often within the nobility, where almost every male member of those families in every generation served as an officer in the army. By this way such “hereditary blades” were preserved over the centuries. I hope, this response is of some help for you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again, if you have some further questions. Mit freundlichen Grüßen Ing. Mag. Thomas Ilming Leiter Referat WaTe (Waffen und Technik) Heeresgeschichtliches Museum A-1030 Wien, Arsenal, Objekt 1 Tel.: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1060320 Mobil: +43 / (0)664/ 8876 3850 Fax: +43 / (0)1/ 79561 - 1017707 |
|
|
|
|
13th July 2015, 07:07 PM
|
#38 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Hi Guys,
Sorry to resuscitate this old thread, but I' m really excited to share with you some results that I got after some researches. A Pala was recently sold at a famous Italian auction house. I was intrigued by the script on the blade, it looked like Arab but it wasn't. It was clearly done by a non Arab speaker. Then I found this thread, but no more. Your so-called Austrian sword had the same kind of script on the blade. But the conclusion was that the blade was probably an Ottoman blade. I was still frustrated and finaly I found a pala almost identical but with an ivory grip. From this pala I traced a link with a sword at the Wallace Museum... with the same decorations and the same script. Austria 1846 Steel, wood, turquoises, silver and gold, embossed, engraved and etched Length: 93.5 cm Weight: 0.76 kg, without scabbard Hallmark: Vienna mark and '1846' Inscription OA1753 Oriental Armoury My conclusion is now more simple and clear, I think all these swords, blades and hilts are Austrian copies of Ottoman palas. What do you think? Best, Kubur |
|
|
|
|
13th July 2015, 08:15 PM
|
#39 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
13th July 2015, 08:52 PM
|
#40 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi Kubur,
A quick reply as I'm going out at the moment. The script doesn't look the same to me but I'm open to some elucidation. My Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
14th July 2015, 07:48 AM
|
#41 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 79
|
Indeed!
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
14th July 2015, 09:11 AM
|
#42 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Quote:
I'm still looking for a descent one, for a descent price... Hard to find  Kubur |
|
|
|
|
|
14th July 2015, 05:12 PM
|
#43 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Well done Kubur!!! Thank you for reviving this fascinating item and thread, and especially for the outstanding follow up.
I am very much in accord with your suggestion this is quite likely an Austrian 'tribute' type weapon. It seems that the tradition of 'oriental' styles with Eastern European countries swords is of course long standing, and we see the Ottoman style hilts on many of their sabres, the Polish versions of karabela notwithstanding. I think it would be worth recalling the many auxiliary units in the Austrian and other armies such as the Freikorps, which evolved out of the famed 'Pandour' regiments of Maria Theresa's forces in the mid 18th c. These units became popular in the Austrian and other European armies some time after the disbanding of von Trencks units in 1750s. The weaponry and fashions of these units was quite 'exotic' and favored of course many Ottoman forms and styles. It would seem these lavishly decorated sabres posted here might fall into such category. If I am not mistaken, in Solingen I believe, there were some efforts in producing 'watered steel' blades in the manner of wootz, but I have so little knowledge of details I cannot go further. I am wondering however, if this situation could account for such blades in these interpretative ( and magnificent!) examples. In the last images, the blade with notching in the blade back reminds me of the curious notches in blades on Scottish skean dhub knives, I think it is termed 'jimpul' . Not suggesting any connection but thought an interesting note. |
|
|
|
|
14th July 2015, 08:25 PM
|
#44 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
TWO AUSTRIAN MODEL 1850 INFANTRY OFFICER S SABRE AND AN AUSTRIAN MODEL 1861 INFANTRY OFFICER S SABRE
the first with earlier curved fuller blade inscribed Frince. (rubbed) on one side and with celestial motifs on the other regulation steel hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard; the second with 18th century Turkish blade retaining traces of gold decoration (erased) regulation steel hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard; and the third with earlier Hungarian broad fullered blade double-edged towards the point etched with the figure of Mary on one face and a Patriarchal cross on the other and with pious inscriptions including Maria Mater Dei Patronia Hungaria Sub tuum Pace sicium confugio [sic] regulation hilt fishskin-covered grip in a contemporary steel scabbard with two loops for suspension the first: 73.5 cm; 29 in blade (3) Provenance The Armoury of Archduke Eugen Fortress Hohenwerfen Salzburg Austria sold Anderson Galleries New York 1st - 5th March 1927 part of lot 487 JWHA Inv. Nos. 269 270 161 AN AUSTRIAN MODEL 1845 CAVALRY OFFICER S SWORD with minor variations with curved kilig style blade formed with a reinforced back-edged etched with trophies a sun-in-splendour scrolls of foliage and celestial motifs on each face and retaining traces of early gilding regulation steel hilt pierced with two slots at the top engraved FI probably for Ferdinand I (reigned 1835-48) wire-bound fishskin-covered grip in its steel scabbard 83.5 cm; 32 7/8 in blade Provenance The Armoury of Archduke Eugen Fortress Hohenwerfen Salzburg Austria sold Anderson Galleries New York 1st - 5th March 1927 part of lot 487 JWHA Inv. No. 272 |
|
|
|
|
15th July 2015, 09:51 AM
|
#45 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Thanks Jim
About the Pandour I have something... Best, Kubur |
|
|
|
|
15th July 2015, 03:45 PM
|
#46 |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Indeed you do Kubur!! Thank you for posting this!
A favorite topic of mine from research years ago . These guys started out as essentially 'security forces' at landed estates etc. then became border guards, ultimately formed into auxiliary units for Austria around mid 18th c. Baron von Trenck was the primary developer of these units, and they (as can be seen) were extremely uh, 'exotic'. They were reconnaissance, skirmishers and foragers for the main body of military forces who were much feared as their depredations became more out of control . This to the point that von Trenck was jailed and the units disbanded. However, the allure of the strategic effectiveness of these forces impressed other European armies as well as remaining an ideal type of unit in the auxiliary status of Austria. The fearsome flamboyance and colorful style of these forces of course included much the same in their weaponry. They used yataghans, a wide range of arms from many ethnic groups, and much inspired military fashions in cavalry especially for many years into the 19th c. I have seen cavalry swords which are hybrids of yataghan blade and 18th century hirshfanger (hunting) style hilts, and other Ottoman styled arms which could be attributed to these type units. In auction a number of years ago was a yataghan type sword attributed to von Trenck (ref: Buttin, 1933). I think that these kinds of sabres may well be attributed to these kinds of elements which existed and inspired military fashions in a number of European armies, with Austria at the fore, recalling that this sphere was essentially the Austro-Hungarian domain . |
|
|
|
|
15th July 2015, 11:55 PM
|
#47 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
Quote:
Spiral |
|
|
|
|
|
16th July 2015, 12:28 PM
|
#48 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
16th July 2015, 01:05 PM
|
#49 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi,
First of all my apologies to everybody for the rather curt replies to your interesting posts. I've been a wee bit busy and not had the time to reply as I would like to. Thanks to ALL for your appreciation of this piece, I must admit it's a bit of a lovely beast. I have in the past few days written to several academic institutions in the hope of getting some resolution to the translation of the script, if this is at all possible, as I suspect this is the key to a more definitive answer as to the origins of the blade. The auction descriptions I posted I think are quite interesting. The blade description in the second single item lot would appear to give credence to the idea of Austrian use of European made blades in the Kilic/Pala style which probably should not be much of a surprise as, as we all know, middle Eastern blade styles were widely copied after Napoleon's enterprises in Egypt. I would also point out that the second sword in the first lot is obviously a trophy blade mounted in the style of the day hence we have two distinct pieces. I think it is worth pointing out that the possible European manufactured blade as described has decoration very much in the fashion of 18thC early 19thC European made blades i.e. sun in splendour etc. I am very much of the opinion that although an Austrian sword has a European made kilic/pala style blade I doubt very much indeed that it would be decorated with obvious Islamic script given the rancour between these two empires and the terrible conflict that went on for so long. Thanks once again for all your continued interest.My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th July 2015 at 09:53 PM. |
|
|
|
|
16th July 2015, 01:09 PM
|
#50 |
|
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
Norman; "I doubt very much indeed that it would be decorated with obvious Islamic script given the rancour between these two empires and the terrible conflict that went on for so long"
Good point Norman
|
|
|
|
|
16th July 2015, 01:40 PM
|
#51 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
I fully agree with both for two reasons:
First, they probably hated the Ottomans and Muslims. Second, because the sword-maker had probably no clue about Arabic writing. BUT, they did these pseudo-writings and decorations on the blades to imitate the Ottoman blades. It means that they liked the design and the decorations. The Greeks did almost the same. Kubur Last edited by fernando; 17th July 2015 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Dispensable paragraph |
|
|
|
|
16th July 2015, 07:04 PM
|
#52 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Quote:
Hi Kubur, I can't remember seeing a positively identified European made blade in the 'Eastern' style that had Islamic script psuedo or otherwise on the blade but as always I'm open to contradiction. My Regards, Norman. P.S. I am aware that there was a trade in arms made in the 'Eastern' style by European manufacturers for export to countries where that style was prevalent. |
|
|
|
|
|
17th July 2015, 12:14 AM
|
#53 | |
|
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,738
|
Quote:
On the other hand, European style markings and inscriptions were often copied by native artisans in various ethnographic spheres, and these of course were typically readily recognizable as false. The efforts to duplicate "Eastern " style by the west was primarily metallurgical, to the watered steel quality of the blade, as well as often to blade features such as yelman, yataghan type recurve etc . When Osborne was researching to develop the British cavalry sabre which became the M1796, he examined numerous 'Oriental' forms such as kilic; shamshirs and tulwars. A good number of early models for officers had distinct yelmans on blades and at least one had a yataghan type blade. |
|
|
|
|
|
17th July 2015, 02:36 AM
|
#54 |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,338
|
There is the bit where one of the inscription is readable Arabic. Its likely a copy though as some bits are not done correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
17th July 2015, 09:49 AM
|
#55 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
|
Quote:
I agree with you for Western Europe. After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans. I don't agree with you for Central and Eastern Europe. I think that the swords in this thread (Norman's sword and the three swords that I presented) are purely Austrians. As Jim said Poland or Bulgaria have a long history with the Islamic world and Ottoman weapons (as the Karabella hilt). Nevertheless I don't know any Ottoman example identical to the swords in this thread. If you find one Ottoman example with such blades, please put it on line as I did. A last word, we cannot discard that the sword-markers working for the Austrian Empire came from the Ottoman Empire. Such blades are admirable and require a lot of knowledge. Best, Kubur |
|
|
|
|
|
11th November 2016, 08:57 PM
|
#56 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi All,
I have received information from a reputable source that the blade on this sword is not of Ottoman manufacture and therefore the only conclusion that I can come to is that the blade is indeed of European/Austrian origin manufactured in the Ottoman fashion. The blade has most likely been rehilted a few times depending on the hilt pattern of the day and does show some marks indicating possible action. There are remains of gilding where hilt and blade meet and this sword must have been a 'bit of a looker' in its heyday. Many thanks to Jim et al who contributed to this thread but particularly to Kubur whose insistence made me delve further than I had previously. My Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
11th November 2016, 09:10 PM
|
#57 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,870
|
Quote:
In my oppinion it is a pattern welded blade very close to Turkish ribbon. Judging only from the photos I cannot be sure but anyhow would bet that is a Turkish made blade. However, it happened before that I lost a bet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
11th November 2016, 09:24 PM
|
#58 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi Mariusgmioc,
I'm still not absolutely sure either.!!! The history of animosity between these two empires is well documented and I still find it difficult to reconcile an Austrian officer sporting an Austrian made Ottoman style blade.  My Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
12th November 2016, 06:41 PM
|
#59 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,575
|
Hi All,
I have reread the correspondence from my reputable source and it is clear that they are sure that this is an Austrian made blade, probably mid 18thC, as apparently this emulation of Ottoman blade profile and decoration was in vogue at this time. I'm also happy to say that the type is not at all common and I suspect this rarity of form has been a big stumbling block in properly identifying this sword. Thanks once again to all who participated in this most interesting discussion. Regards, Norman. |
|
|
|
|
12th March 2020, 03:52 AM
|
#60 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 276
|
Western European Mameluke Officer's Sword
Hi Guys
I originally posted this sword on the Ethnographic Weapons page of Vikingsword Forum, as the previous owner had it marked down as a Turkish Generals Sword. Thanks to assistance from this posting we have now settled on the sword being western European with pseudo ottoman script. Now that I have had more time to review this sword I can also provide a better description: Western European Officer’ Mameluke. Hilt has an all in one brass backstrap and Pistol shaped pommel (without the usual hole in the pommel). Brass Ferrule with corded central decoration. Brass cross guard with Chain Guard. Grip decoratively carved bone. Curved single edged flat blade with shallow (9 ½” 24 cm) clip back point. Blade has a small decorative panel on each side containing pseudo ottoman script. Plain steel scabbard with two throat screws and two steel bands with hangers. The swords dimensions are: Overall Length: In Scabbard 35 ¼” 89.6 cm, sword only 34 1/8” 86.7 cm Blade length: 28 ¼” 71.8 cm Blade widest point: 1 ¼” 3.2 cm Hilt widest point: 5 ¾” 14.5 cm Inside grip length: 4” 10.1 cm I am still trying to identify whether the sword is Hungarian, French or English. I have been unable to find another example with this unusual style pf Pistol pommel/grip. On a previous post I did find a reference stating that “After the French expedition in Egypt, Western Europeans (mainly French & British) started to produce the "sabres a l'orientale", just copies of Islamic / Ottoman kilij with pistol grip. But the marks and decorations on the blades were purely Europeans”. Which certainly would seem to fit with this sword. Cheers Cathey and Rex |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
