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Old 12th November 2005, 10:37 AM   #1
Pusaka
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Default Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

I have noticed that old keris blades are sharper then modern keris made with modern steel. They also hold an edge far longer then modern steel keris. I have also noticed that they are less prone to rusting then modern blades. An example is I have a very old keris blade which shows no sign of rust but my new keris blade which is perhaps 15 years old has very small spots of rust forming already.
My old keris is very light and razor sharp, I have never sharpened it with no signs of rust but my modern keris is heavy blunt and as I said has signs of rust. I know which one I prefer but why canít a modern keris worker produce something better then the old keris workers considering the advancements in technology?
I have noticed also that modern keris are silver in colour first and then dyed black to bring up the pamor whilst old keris used a dark Iron which contrasted with the pamor. The thing is that if you sharpen a dyed keris the dye will rub off revealing the silver metal underneath and you will need to dye it again. As far as I know old keris had black Iron so even if you sharpen it the keris will still be black at the edge because it was the Iron it was made from which was black not a coating of black dye. I have to say I donít like these modern dyed blades.
Have you also noticed how old keris have a slightly rough grainy (open pore) Iron which soaks up the keris oil when you apply it whilst modern keris have a smooth tight surface, if you apply oil it just sits on the surface and dose not seam to penetrate the blade.

I would be very grateful if some of you with knowledge of keris could inform me of the source of this old material from which the blades were made as I feel it is far superior to modern steel keris. Also which empu still use the old traditional methods and materials for making keris blades because if I was going to have a blade made I would not want it made from modern steel using modern methods.
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Old 12th November 2005, 02:25 PM   #2
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I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .
They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !
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Old 12th November 2005, 03:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .
They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !


Why is the Iron black?? if you look at a modern keris like the one I seen on this forum (bellow) it is silver as we would expect since it is steel but my old keris is black like the one in your photo but it is not dye, the Iron is black
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Old 12th November 2005, 03:23 PM   #4
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Welcome to the forum Pusaka.I would concur with Rick and would add a few more items. Firstly, as in the past with old keris, there are all levels of quality to be found in new keris. I have seen new keris which are at the highest level of keris making both technologically and artistically. Of course they cost more than a couple of hundred dollars.
The iron in certain old blades is prized for it's quality. However, i am unaware of there being "black" iron. All keris that have the pamor pattern raised with the iron black get that way through a staining process which uses arsernic to stain the iron black while leaving the nickelous pamor material silvery or gray. Traditionally this was a process which was done on a yearly basis yielding the results you see in Ricks example.
As Rick points out, you should NEVER sharpen a keris blade unless your aim is to ruin it.You will find that many are sharp in varying degrees, but the keris is essentially a stabbing weapon. I suppose the majority of new blades aren't made sharp because they are no longer intented to act as a weapon. But i am sure that many of the higher quality new blades would hold an edge just fine if they have one.
You will find that there are VERY few actual empus left in Indonesia. There are many talented smiths. Commissioning a blade from someone like empu Djeno (even he only supervises as his apprentices do the work) would be a fairly pricey affair and would probably take a couple of years at least. Sometime new blades are made from melting down out blades, but i am not sure this would give you a higher quality product in the end.

Last edited by nechesh : 12th November 2005 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 12th November 2005, 03:36 PM   #5
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Pusaka, i would image that if you ever (heaven forbid ) were to cut your old blade in half you would discover that it 's core is not black like the surface. You blade just has the remnants of it's last arsenic treatment.
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Old 12th November 2005, 06:01 PM   #6
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One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.
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Old 12th November 2005, 06:55 PM   #7
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Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person.

Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are.
Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?
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Old 12th November 2005, 07:20 PM   #8
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Hi Pusaka. To the best of my knowledge (hopeful more knowledgeable minds will correct me if i am wrong) Pamor Sanak has no nickelous material in it so that when the blade is stained by arsenic treatment there is very little contrast in the pattern. Sometimes there will be slight contrasts due to the different types of iron used. While i am sure you will find that old empus may have at times used 7 metals to form a keris i don't believe this could ever be counted as a rule and you will find slightly different processes and techniques used by different empus throughout time. Pamor Luwu refers to pamor material collected on Sulawesi (Celebes). This was once a very popular source for nickelous pamor. I don't think there was ever a natural source for nickelous pamor in Jawa before the Prambanan meteorite fall in the late 18th century. That material was considered quite special and reserved most for court pieces. I don't have reference books available, but if memory serves Pamor Luwu had about a 4% nickel content while the Pamor Prambanan was up towards 9%, producing a higher contrast when stained. I am not familar with Pamor Keleng, but perhaps others have heard of it.
By your own standard the keris you posted in before and after poses probably should not be considered modern.
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Old 12th November 2005, 07:31 PM   #9
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As far as I know Keleng is a pure black keris with no pamor but not sure
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Old 12th November 2005, 07:43 PM   #10
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I own a very old keris kebo lajer (16thC) that is all black with the pamor pattern of kul buntet at it's base. It was discribed to me as pamor sanak by someone with much greater knowledge than me. Perhaps Keleng refers to a keris that has no pattern as well as no nickelous material.
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Old 12th November 2005, 07:59 PM   #11
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I had a moment to check some books and according to Frey, Pamor Luwu was measured some time back at 0.4% nickel, not 4%. Just a bit lower. Sorry.
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Old 12th November 2005, 09:34 PM   #12
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Regarding the questions raised by Mr. Pusaka.

Sharpness:- this a product of mechanical process ( sharpening on a stone) and blade geometry ( the angle formed by the two blade sides meeting at the edge) as well as the material use to make the blade. In old keris the blade very thin , usually, and also the edge usually not even which give serrated effect. Result is a blade that will cut skin easy but if this blade tested for cutting on rope or thin paper you will find that it not really sharp at all. What you have is perception that blade is sharp.
Keris that have been made as work of art or for purpose of dress often have not been heat treat and also not sharpen. Why should a maker risk the loss of many hours work which can occur if an unseen weld fault exists in the blade and it only become obvious when the blade is heat treat?Why should a blade that will not be used as a weapon be given a sharp edge?
Although keris used as a thrust weapon many keris made as weapon did have a sharpened edge.
The heat treat on any keris blade is not for the full length of the keris blade. On a Jawa blade it usually go to the end of the sogokan. On Bugis and Malay blades it sometimes go only to halfway up the blade or less.

Iron and steel:- old keris blades used iron for the outside layers of the blade; more recent keris blades often use mild steel for the outside layers of the keris blade. Iron does not have carbon and will resist rust better than steel. Mild steel only has low carbon content but will rust more easy than iron, especially if it is heat treat.The very oldest iron will be white and shiny if it file flat and polish. Take old iron and new steel, polish both and they will look similar.
The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade. Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. Or at least he did not wash it enough.Mild steel is produce in factory with modern perfection and is very dense with tight grain structure.With repeated fold and weld even iron that start as very poor quality can be make dense and smooth and look almost like modern mild steel when it polish and stain.
All the sources of old iron use in making keris are not known but in Jawa traditional names are given to many kinds of iron and these names tell us that the iron from many different sources. Probably some iron smelted locally, some come into Jawa by trade. Keris have been found with blade made of wootz . In some 19 century and early 20 century books European writers say iron for keris is taken from Chinese tools. I think it will be safe to say that keris makers in the past will have act like smiths anywhere and use whatever iron they could get their hand on and most often not know where the original iron come from.

Pamor:- the word "sanak" mean "relation" or "relative" so if we say "pamor sanak" we mean the pamor material all related and not mixed with material that not iron. The word "pamor" mean "blend" or "mix". So pamor sanak make from all iron, just different kind of iron some white iron, some dark iron. Pamor luwu make from material from Luwu in Sulawesi like Mr. Nechesh already say. Pamor keleng really not quite right. The word "keleng" mean "black". Really is no pamor keleng, but is Mpu Keleng who tradition tell us from Pajajaran.Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. Also in Malaysia people call a black keris, " keris kelengan ", but in Jawa we call keris like this "pangawak waja".

Empu:- I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real.Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu. There are modern makers who still make keris with use traditional method, but if we want blade make with traditional method the cost many times the cost of blade make with modern method, and the blade make with modern method and blade make with traditional method really do not look so different when finished. To make a keris blade by traditional method take a very lot of time. Modern method is more quick. But if both blades finished, both look the same, if the skill level of both makers similar.
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Old 13th November 2005, 09:29 AM   #13
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In my opinion the keris has developed itself from a waepon into a more religeus and status symbol.

from this perspective You can say that the for the more older kerises the main goal is -like all other waepons (example Swords from India)-, is to make a light, strong ( not break very easy) and edged knife.
The harder the knife ...the more sharper you can make it, but will break more easy, the more flexible cannot break easy, but cannot be sharpened as wanted. A weaponsmid, like an empu try to get the best from both.
Study material about wootz/damescener steel in this forum and Pauls keris place can help a lot of our keris lovers.

How to achieve?...Not only the used materials,and the mixture but also the procedure will influence the aspects as hardness, rusting, surface etc.
The difference between a old and modern keris lies in more than one aspect.
And i think the commercial factors make the different
1. time ( the more you make the more you earn..)
2. costs !! like amount of coal used, or use diffrent kind of fire witch will be influence the the contents of the iron.
3. The pamor patern is more importent than the weapon itself, Is that why we see more more and fancy pamors?
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Old 13th November 2005, 12:30 PM   #14
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Ok I think I now understand the problem. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made with steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge.
An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. Itís not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but itís the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt.
As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because itís made from steel.
The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp.
Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris.
The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris.

Marto Suwigny your post was very informative and you established that there is such thing as black Iron and different grades of colours of Irons. I am guessing that the colour variation is caused by the presence of other minerals in the Iron ore, is that a good thing or a bad thing i.e. is pure Iron better?

Last edited by Pusaka : 13th November 2005 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 13th November 2005, 01:40 PM   #15
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Actually, if you reread Marto's post you will see that he answered your last question:
"The grainy or fibrous nature of some types of old iron make a very rough surface especially if the blade been cleaned many times. Iron like this has open grain structure so it easy for substance applied to blade to penetrate below outer surface of the iron. Warangan will penetrate a little and give deeper etch, oil will also penetrate and sometime after old blade cleaned you can still smell the oil in the blade.Actually iron like this not good iron because it shows that the maker of the blade did not wash the iron of impurity before using it to make the keris. "
Also Marto wrote:
"Also is kelengan iron . This iron very black and have a very rough open grain . It is not good iron. "
Your logic on rusting perhaps makes some sense, though i'm not sure it would be correct to state that steel rusts "much" faster than iron. And i always thought sword makers moved into using steel not just because of increased strength, but also it's ability to hold a better edge than iron. But i could be wrong on that. Anyway, for many of us the regular oiling of our keris is not a thing of the past. I must say that i have been fortunate not to have seen any rust accumulate on any of my blades, new or old. Though it's a bit more work as the collection grows you just have to keep at it.
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Old 13th November 2005, 02:09 PM   #16
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Since a sword blade is long it would make more sense to make it from steel because being a long blade it will flex more then a short keris blade and thus have more chance of breaking if it was Iron. I think thatís one of the main reasons why they moved to steel but I could be wrong.
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Old 13th November 2005, 08:02 PM   #17
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Yes, the character of the keris has change from the time it first begin until now. At different time in different place the character of keris can be different. In Jawa the Englishman Raffles tell us that when he become governor of Jawa the keris already at that time is character of something that complete the dress of a man.But in the Pararaton already the keris is call the "symbol of manhood". Raffles in Jawa maybe 1812 to maybe 1818. The Pararaton is Majapahit time. But in Majapahit time and later the keris certainly a weapon.In Jawa in 19 and 20 century the keris not really a weapon. But in Majapahit and until now the keris not only a weapon but have other character too.

The true study of the keris not simple and not easy and not just give a name to pamor and dapur and tangguh.The true study of the keris we must to study Jawa history and culture and art and society. This very difficult because Jawa now not the same as Jawa in 12 century or 16 century or 18 century. Culture and society in Jawa change all the time, but with still the foundation culture. We can not just to study the keris if we want to understand the keris. We must to study all of everything that make Jawa.

Here I talk only Jawa, but the keris also in Bali and other place. How difficult to learn about the keris with true knowledge.

To understand the material that make a keris we must to understand also how to make keris. Keris blade have a thin piece of steel in the middle that become the cutting edge and the point. On the sides of the thin piece of steel the pamor . The pamor make from different kind of iron weld together or from iron and nikel or something with nikel in it weld together. Even with old keris the steel still in the middle of the blade. But not with keris Buda.

The difference of iron and steel that steel have carbon.The carbon in steel allow the steel to become hard when heat treat. This is make the steel red hot and then to make cold very quick by push into water or into oil. But when the steel get hard it also more easy to break so if the iron and pamor not on the outside of the blade the blade maybe break . When the steel get hard the iron not get hard . The iron still can bend after the heat treat so the iron protect the steel in the middle of the blade from break if the blade bend.But because the steel already hard it can more sharp and can more sharp for longer time.

Iron:- can not get hard, easy to bend, not easy to break, easy to weld.

Steel:- can get hard from heat treat, not easy to bend, easy to break, difficult to weld.

Steel can be bend too but to allow steel to bend and not to break some of the hard of the heat treat must be take away from the steel. Some of the hard of the steel can be take away by make the steel hot but not very hot and then to push into water or oil again. Hot until if the steel already polish bright, colour like blue and yellow can be see on the steel.But in Jawa with keris the empu not do this because maybe the steel in the keris only a little bit of carbon and not so easy to break and also the iron in the pamor protect the steel from break.

But if steel not heat treat and only stay soft, that steel too easy to bend like iron. The different is the heat treat that change the structure of the material.Not just if the material steel or iron.

But everything not really so simple like that, because some iron with impurity, but impurity not carbon also can easy to break and can difficult to weld.Because some iron have this impurity the empu must to wash the iron by weld many times until no impurity. This can know because when the iron hot enough to weld no spark come from iron when hit with hammer. This many times bend the iron and weld not only remove the impurity but also give the pattern like wos wutah to the iron. If the material that the empu fold and weld very different material the wos wutah pattern easy to see.

Many thing can make a sharp edge not sharp. Yes rust can make a sharp edge dull but also to use a blade with a sharp edge the blade will dull.If to cut a rope many times with a sharp knife not very long the sharp knife not sharp any more. If to cut fruit or tomat with sharp knife the blade will dull because the acid in the fruit.

Yes there is black iron and iron of many other colours, but we only can see that colour when the iron stain with arsenic. If the iron polish all iron the same : bright and shine.

I am sorry if some of my English is not too easy to understand. Already now I must think if I want to talk English or write English. If every day I can use English it is normal and easy, but if only sometimes I must stop and think. If something that I write is not clear please tell me and I will try again to make it clear.
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Old 13th November 2005, 09:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marto suwignyo
But everything not really so simple like that, because some iron with impurity, but impurity not carbon also can easy to break and can difficult to weld.Because some iron have this impurity the empu must to wash the iron by weld many times until no impurity. This can know because when the iron hot enough to weld no spark come from iron when hit with hammer. This many times bend the iron and weld not only remove the impurity but also give the pattern like wos wutah to the iron. If the material that the empu fold and weld very different material the wos wutah pattern easy to see.


Great post Marto Suwignyo ... however I think you might have missed out a step in the process. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In my understanding the Mpu does the wasuh process to clean the iron by heating and beating between the hammer and anvil and folding repeatedly until (s)he has a length of clean iron -mateng wasuhan- then (s)he sticks a strip of (also preprepared) pamor material which can be made from many different metal sources including meteorite.

This strip of two metals is then welded together and repeatedly folded. This process must be done carefully as the aim is to get many layers of the two metals without actually have them weld together completely and become like an aloy. When there are enough folds the Mpu cuts the strip in two, sandwiches the steel between the layers of iron and pamor iron, cuts a tip to use later as the ganja (optional), and begins the basic shape of the keris-to-be called the kodokan -froggy- because the rough shape of the pesi to-be looks a bit like a frog's tail -perhaps?

So the wasuh process does not actually make the pamor like beras wutah. Rather it is the welding of the iron and the pamor material which makes the pamor paterns. Before these are welded and folded they must first be put through the wasuh process to obtain the best quality blade. The technique of hammering is also different then the hammering in the wasuh process.

This is what I know, please correct me if I am wrong.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC.
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Old 13th November 2005, 10:30 PM   #19
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What I write only is for rough outline of how iron is prepare. If iron that is weld together during wash process is different types like white iron and iron that stain more black then is pattern produce in iron that look like wos wutah. If all iron similar and no white iron then is produce pamor sanak.If all iron is same type iron then most time that iron when all clean has only grain like hair. After iron is prepare and the empu will to use nikel pamor material then the empu to continue with process like Kyai Carita tells.Material for gonjo is best to cut before steel is weld to the pamor.
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Old 14th November 2005, 06:57 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.


Nechesh you made an interesting statement here...may I ask why you think WWII is significant in kerisology? .... and thank you Marto Suwignyo for the further elaboration of the proces of making keris.

Thank you
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Old 14th November 2005, 11:49 AM   #21
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Well Kiai, in many ways it is a somewhat arbitrary dating on my part. But it is my understanding however that in Bali, for instance, there was not much serious keris making after that war. I would imagine that WWII had a great impact on the region as a whole as well. Though the Puputans definitely signaled an end of an era in Bali at the beginning of the century it is my understanding that a certain amount of cultural rebounding was beginning to take place up until WWII. Whether this applied to the rest of Indonesia i am unsure, but i would think that a world war in your back yard could put quite a damper on things.
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Old 14th November 2005, 06:11 PM   #22
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In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.
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Old 14th November 2005, 09:19 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pusaka
In modern times which keris workers are able to produce a keris using meteorite Iron? I know it is difficult so most keris workers dont have this skill but which ones have.


Pusaka, up till WWII people still sold meteorite in the markets of the cities. All keris craftsmen would be able to make keris using meteorite. Making a keris is difficult and even in the modern times most of the technical, material, aspects of keris making are the same as the way the ancient Mpu used to work, the difference being mosty in the spiritual work. I suggest go to Aeng Tong Tong and you will be able to see a village full of keris makers.

Mans, who posts on this forum regularly goes there and knows many of these craftsmen. Some consistently produce good work and do not cut corners and live straight lives and although they are not recognized as Mpu they argueably could be called Mpu just for their service of keeping quality keris making skills alive. The Solo art academy also has people who have interest in making keris. The problem is making keris is a long process and the market is small. You can buy a regular quality old keris for less than the price of a new well made one. Alot of people prefer the old because they think the old has more 'spiritual' powers.

Traditionally you if you go to an Mpu and ask for a keris to be made for you would be asked many things to determine what shape and pamor pattern would be beneficial for you, and when the making should proceed and end, and so on. You could collect meteorite from e-bay and forge it and hammer it clean of impurities...according to Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris, you need between 300-400 grammes of this stuff to make a keris. Then you choose what iron (around 12 - 18 kg depending on the shape of the blade, wavy or straight) and the steel for the centre and sharp edge (around 600 grammes).

As long as you chose a pamor pattern that is categorized as pamor mlumah (lying on it's back) then the difficulties are not that high. If you want a fancy pamor miring (lying on it's side) then it is much more difficult to execute using hammer welding.

By the way, I notice you are cut-and-pasting posts and photos from members of this forum and using the images and member's words in discussion on the martialartsplanet silat forum withough mentioning the source. Is it OK to do this? I am sure there are many keris enthusiasts through silat there that would benefit from joining this knowledgable forum.

Warm salaams to all,
KC
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Old 14th November 2005, 09:36 PM   #24
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I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this issue in more detail .

In the meantime Pusaka cease and desist from doing this .
I'll be monitoring the other forum .

Last edited by Rick : 14th November 2005 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 14th November 2005, 09:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I believe all posts on this forum are considered as copyrighted by their individual authors . Permission from each author of a post may need to be secured .

Hopefully Mark or Andrew can address this in more detail .


First, this is me saying this as an individual, not as a representative of this forum or its Staff.

It is correct that ownership of the copyright is with the poster/writer. Period. In most cases permission is required for use. On the other hand, there is something called "fair use," which does not require permission, but should include attribution of the source. Plus, its plagarism to try and pass off others' words as your own (an academic no-no, to be sure).

Bottom line -- no one is likely to get sued over it, but in my personal opinion its a pretty uncool thing to do on these kinds of forums.

Now, putting my Moderator hat back on ... let's leave the copyright discussion right here and not start a debate, or heaven forbid a flame war, over the issue (either generally or with regard to this specific case).

Mark

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Old 14th November 2005, 10:02 PM   #26
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Maybe all keris craftsmen can use meteor material to make keris if they know how to use meteor material.

The truth is that during the last 50 years at least only one keris maker known to use meteor material:- Empu Djeno Harumbrojo.

One other keris maker in Solo make two keris with using pamor material from meteor but that Solo keris maker do not prepare the meteor to be able to use. Somebody not from Indonesia prepare the meteor and give to the Solo keris maker to use for pamor material.

Meteor can be weld if wrap in iron and then weld and wash, but technology with technique that use in Jawa can not make pure meteor pamor material. To make pure pamor material the difficulties very high if the technology to use is the traditional technology of Jawa.

Last edited by marto suwignyo : 14th November 2005 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 14th November 2005, 10:47 PM   #27
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Empu Djeno Harumbrojo is the only person left in Indonesia who can make a meteorite keris ? Im sure that cant be correct, can it??
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Old 14th November 2005, 11:05 PM   #28
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Visit Yogya, Solo, Madura and Jawa Timur and try to find somebody else who already use meteor.

Somebody who give gaurantee that he can make keris with meteor material.
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Old 15th November 2005, 01:49 AM   #29
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Hi Mark. I don't want a to start a debate or a flame war either, but i do think that Pusaka does owns us an explanation. Not only are entire passages lifted from this forum without permission and presented as his own, but then they are combined with his own misguided and false conclusions that are antithetical to the meaning and spirit of the original lifted posts. Mick"s Balinese keris is presented as an example of a keris made from modern steel and pure nickel that is then dyed black. Now you know why i never post examples of my collection on line.
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Old 15th November 2005, 03:16 AM   #30
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Would someone please PM me a link to the discussion on the other board?

In the interim, I'm locking this thread until the staff has had the opportunity to discuss this.
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