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Old 15th April 2020, 09:37 AM   #1
JustYS
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Default Pamorless

Usually Iíve acquired a keris due to its pamor but this time I prefer pamor-less (keleng).

Here is the pamor-less keris with dhapur Mangkurat Mangkunegara.

Thank you in advance for your comments

Cheers,
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Old 15th April 2020, 09:48 AM   #2
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Hey ! Got a simple question here. Do we assume it's a newly made keris ?
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Old 15th April 2020, 10:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG163
Hey ! Got a simple question here. Do we assume it's a newly made keris ?


I believe so. The blade has pudak sategal (hooks) on the sides and a very odd ganja tail. The dhapur name is correct. Modern piece...
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Old 15th April 2020, 11:32 AM   #4
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Yes, I also believe it is a modern Keris.

If I remember correctly (correct me if Iím wrong), Alan once said that pudhak sategal is not a feature found in old Keris.

Cheers,
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Old 15th April 2020, 05:57 PM   #5
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I agree. Modern take.
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:26 AM   #6
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What about mendak ?
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Old 16th April 2020, 08:51 AM   #7
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Despite the fact that this is a modern keris, its a beauty. Congrats on this one.
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Old 16th April 2020, 09:25 PM   #8
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This seems like a well made current era blade, but the features are frankly not to my tastes. The rather bulbous "nose" of the kembang kacang and what Jean remarked as the "odd tail" of the gonjo seem strange to my eye and out of balance. So does the pudhak sategal, firstly is the way they hook back towards the blade after leaving the body of the wilah (generally they would continue a trajectory outward) and secondly the way the back pudhak sategal begins to follow the line into the first luk of the blade creating an "S" curve instead of a solid arc. This all seems very odd for pudhak sategal as i have observed them in other keris and for me all these things create a rather unharmonious flow in this blade.
I'm not sure what Alan has said about this feature in the past, but i believe i have seen keris that at least appear to be antique that do have this feature. I cannot say how long it has been an accepted ricikan for keris though nor if it is a part of known and accepted pakem or not, but perhaps Alan will be able to confirm or deny this if he sees this thread.
I am sorry to sound critical of this keris. The important thing, of course, is that it appeals to you. But it does seem that you were seeking comments and this one just isn't to my personal tastes.I hope you will not take my views personally.
However, like GIO, i am intrigued by the mendak. Do you know what the material used here is? I've never seen one like it and find it appealing.
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Old 16th April 2020, 11:44 PM   #9
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Yes I like that mendak as well and am interested to know the material used.

Quote:
I cannot say how long it has been an accepted ricikan for keris though nor if it is a part of known and accepted pakem or not, but perhaps Alan will be able to confirm or deny this if he sees this thread.


The dhapur Mangkurat Mangkunagara is indeed found in the dhapur keris Keraton Surakarta manuscript.
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Old 17th April 2020, 12:37 AM   #10
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First of all I would like to thank you for all your comments.

Secondly, David you are right Iím looking for comments so no need to be sorry.

Au contraire, while I agreed that tastes differ (Henk and I like it, others not so much), but yours and Jeanís comments regarding the shape of pudhak sategal and tail of ganja are very much appreciated.

Regarding the mendak, unfortunately the Keris is still in Indonesia and with current situation itís not anytime soon that I can travel there. My guess-timate is that it is some sort of batu akik (gemstone?). As you probably know most keris dealers in Indonesia also sell batu akik.



The dhapur Mangkurat Mangkunagara is indeed found in the dhapur keris Keraton Surakarta manuscript.[/QUOTE]

Yes dhapur Mangkurat Mangkunegara is described in Dhapur keris Keraton Surakarta manuscript, but I believe this manuscript is written in the 20th century and in Keris world that would be considered "New".

Cheers
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Old 17th April 2020, 12:43 AM   #11
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We do not see pudak setegal in old keris, but we need to be aware that from the Javanese perspective "old keris" means keris prior to the second era of Mataram, ie, more or less prior to 1600.Mataram and younger are "new keris".

Pudak setegal is actually the name of a type of dancer's ear ornament, not an ear ring or stud, but an ornament. Pudhak is the pandanus flower, but the word "setegal" or "sategal" makes no sense to me in this context, so we need to regard the two words together as a name. The dancer's ear ornament is the source of the name for the blade ornamentation.

Both keris & tombak can have this ornament, in tombak its form & placement is strictly prescribed, in keris the form & placement are up to the artistic interpretation of the maker, a number of different approaches are possible.

This keris is an artistic creation. The garap is particularly fine, personally I find this keris very pleasing indeed, it is not classical, nor is it intended to be, but as with all works of art, whether we find something pleasing or not is purely personal taste.

I think the mendak inset will be found to be ivory.

Overall this is very, very good modern keris that would have a relatively high value, the weakest component part is the pendok, and it would not surprise me if somewhere along the line this has been changed from the original, the quality of the other component parts is such that normally an engraved pendok should normally have been fitted, not an embossed pendok.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:31 AM   #12
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The gemstones on the mendok appear to me to be moonstone.
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Old 17th April 2020, 01:46 AM   #13
Anthony G.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustYS
Usually Iíve acquired a keris due to its pamor but this time I prefer pamor-less (keleng).

Here is the pamor-less keris with dhapur Mangkurat Mangkunegara.

Thank you in advance for your comments

Cheers,


Nice and beautiful made.
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Old 17th April 2020, 02:26 AM   #14
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Yes, if these are gemstones they possibly are moonstones, but this style of mendak often has an ivory or bone insert rather than gemstones, usually where gemstones are used they are put into a setting. Where ivory or bone is used it is an insert in the shape of a ring.
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Old 17th April 2020, 06:11 AM   #15
JustYS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
We do not see pudak setegal in old keris, but we need to be aware that from the Javanese perspective "old keris" means keris prior to the second era of Mataram, ie, more or less prior to 1600.Mataram and younger are "new keris".


Thank you Alan for refreshing my memory on what is Old and New from the Javanese perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Pudak setegal is actually the name of a type of dancer's ear ornament, not an ear ring or stud, but an ornament. Pudhak is the pandanus flower, but the word "setegal" or "sategal" makes no sense to me in this context, so we need to regard the two words together as a name. The dancer's ear ornament is the source of the name for the blade ornamentation.


Pudhak Sategal literally means a field full of Pandanus flower, I agree it does not make any sense in Keris context.

Do you have any image depicting this type of dancer's ear ornament that become the source of Pudhak Sategal in Keris?

Also according to Dhapur 1920 book there are 2 types of pudhak sategal:

1. Landep (sharp/open)
2. Bungkem (dull/closed)

Do you know the symbolic meaning of these 2 types of pudhak sategal?

Thank you
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Old 17th April 2020, 08:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This keris is an artistic creation. The garap is particularly fine, personally I find this keris very pleasing indeed, it is not classical, nor is it intended to be, but as with all works of art, whether we find something pleasing or not is purely personal taste.
Overall this is very, very good modern keris that would have a relatively high value, the weakest component part is the pendok, and it would not surprise me if somewhere along the line this has been changed from the original, the quality of the other component parts is such that normally an engraved pendok should normally have been fitted, not an embossed pendok.


It is very surprising to notice how such a new kris can raise such different reactions, like any piece of modern art!
Regarding the pendok, it is not of high quality indeed but some embossed pendoks could be very finely made, see example.
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Old 17th April 2020, 08:40 AM   #17
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If we take the two words "pudhak" & "sategal" and look them up in a dictionary we find that "pudhak" = pandanus flower, and "sategal" ="sa" singular indicator prefix + "tegal" which can be understood in several ways but coupled with a flower it should be understood as dry field, not a field for rice, but for dry crops, or even just grass, it can also be understood as a large field.

However, if we put those two words together they must not be understood literally as separate words, they must be understood as the name of a part of the wardrobe used by dancers performing the classical repertoire.

I have no deep knowledge of Javanese dance, most especially not of the names or appearance of all the wardrobe items used by dancers. I know the origin of the name because it is something that was common knowledge amongst Solo ahli keris during the 1980's.

What I wrote about the freedom of the maker in use of this pudhak sategal characteristic is again something that was taken as a given by the people from whom I learnt, I think you will find EK says something similar --- I cannot check this myself at the moment because I've lent my copy of EK to a friend.

The symbolism of the pandanus flower is common knowledge, but I have no knowledge at all of what variations in the style of rendering the pandanus flower might be.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 17th April 2020 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 17th April 2020, 08:46 AM   #18
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Yes Jean, you are absolutely correct, some embossed work can be of high quality, similarly, some engraved work can be of rather poor quality, however in terms of comparison between embossed work and engraved work, the craftsman's skill, the time involved, the cost and the degree of prestige attached to ownership is invariably higher with engraved work than with embossed work. I'm not speaking just of keris or pendok here, I'm speaking of all those things that can be embossed or engraved.

Actually, the most prestigious pendok style is the templek pendok, where a panel of sculpted metal overlays the front of the pendok, producing a three dimensional effect.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:31 PM   #19
JustYS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
If we take the two words "pudhak" & "sategal" and look them up in a dictionary we find that "pudhak" = pandanus flower, and "sategal" ="sa" singular indicator prefix + "tegal" which can be understood in several ways but coupled with a flower it should be understood as dry field, not a field for rice, but for dry crops, or even just grass, it can also be understood as a large field.

However, if we put those two words together they must not be understood literally as separate words, they must be understood as the name of a part of the wardrobe used by dancers performing the classical repertoire.

I have no deep knowledge of Javanese dance, most especially not of the names or appearance of all the wardrobe items used by dancers. I know the origin of the name because it is something that was common knowledge amongst Solo ahli keris during the 1980's.

What I wrote about the freedom of the maker in use of this pudhak sategal characteristic is again something that was taken as a given by the people from whom I learnt, I think you will find EK says something similar --- I cannot check this myself at the moment because I've lent my copy of EK to a friend.

The symbolism of the pandanus flower is common knowledge, but I have no knowledge at all of what variations in the style of rendering the pandanus flower might be.


Many thanks for your detailed explanations Alan

Cheers,
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