dapur ????????????? help

semar · 14th May 2011, 06:03 AM

hello I have buy yesterday this keris but I don`t know the dapur
can some one help me with this keris
the keris have a long gandik from 6.5 cm
kembang kacang
and have 7 loeks

regards semar

Greybeard · 14th May 2011, 01:34 PM

Hello Semar

Your keris reminds me a bit of the dapur Kebo Teki, but Kebo Teki is a straight dapur ... In any event, you bought a very nice and interesting keris! Congratulations!

Regards,

Heinz

Jean · 14th May 2011, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semar

hello I have buy yesterday this keris but I don`t know the dapur
can some one help me with this keris
the keris have a long gandik from 6.5 cm
kembang kacang
and have 7 loeks

regards semar

Hello Semar,
I have a similar blade (with some differences) purchased in Surabaya but no idea about the dapur name (out of pakem according to the EK).
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2011, 11:27 PM

I thank you Semar for opening this thread.

You have provided a very good example to demonstrate the point I have made in an earlier thread in respect of the lack of relevance of the name applied to the dhapur of a keris.

Your keris has a long gandhik and ac kembang kacang, as well as 7 luk.

Two experienced keris collectors seem to have reached agreement that the dhapur is kebo teki, but with 7 luk, and as Jean has pointed out, kebo teki is listed as a straight blade in at least one pakem.

Now let us look at this question.

In the well known Surakarta Pakem we have kebo teki shown. The ricikan are:-

three lambe gajah jalen kembang kacang greneng

the gandhik is very marginally longer than a normal sized gandhik

when considering dhapur of "kebo" type, we need to also consider dhapur of "mahesa" type; mahesa and kebo have the same meaning.

In Harsrinuksmo we can find Mahesa Teki.

Mahesa Teki is cross referenced to Kebo Teki in this reference. It should be, as it has the same meaning.

Harsrinuksmo shows a keris with a gandhik perhaps 4 or 5 times the length of a normal gandhik, and with no kembang kacang, no lambe gajah, no jalen, no greneng.This is what he knew as kebo teki.

Interesting.

But maybe we can consider one of the other keris in the kebo and mahesa group as a candidate.

Harsinuksmo lists 7 keris as "mahesa something or other", and 6 keris as "kebo something or other"; some of these overlap because of cross reference.

In Harsrinuksmo one keris is shown that is similar to Semar's keris, and that is Kebo Giri, however, Kebo Giri has a straight blade.

OK, maybe the Surakarta Pakem will help us, so let's have a look at it:-

kebo lajer, kebo dungkul, kebo dhendheng, kebo teki, mahesa nempuh (3 luk), kebo tedan (5 luk), kebo dhengan (5 luk), mahesa nyabrang (15 luk).

Regrettably no blade with a kebo or mahesa designation that has similar form to Semar's keris, and additionally, no 7 luk keris that has similar form.

Several of the illustrations for the forms I have listed above are missing from the copy of the pakem I have in front of me, I do have a complete photographic record of the original of this pakem, and will look at the forms I have not yet seen as soon as I get the opportunity.

However, we are looking at a keris here that definitely has some age and appears to have been made by a competent maker.

So the question arises:-

was the maker wrong, or are the pakems wrong?

or perhaps the pakem that the maker was using has been lost?

If we become involved with the name game we are simply doing the work of a junior clerk or a storeman:- identify, label, record, pigeonhole.

The time spent on this endless and fruitless search for names could be much better spent in study of methods of manufacture and relevant social and cultural questions, or even in an attempt to try to understand the way in which keris quality is appraised.

There is an enormous amount of knowledge that can be pursued outside the mind deadening waste of time that is the Name Game.

semar · 15th May 2011, 02:39 AM

thank you mister Maisey

I have bring yesterday the keris for cleaning to a man here in Yogya
and he say the name of the dapur = kebo teki carubuk ????

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2011, 04:12 AM

Another good example Semar.

Dhapur carubuk is listed in the Surakarta Pakem with 7 luk, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, greneng, sraweyan.

This pakem does not list kebo carubuk.

Harsrinuksmo illustrates a keris with the same features that he identifies as carubuk, but does not list kebo carubuk.

Take your keris to 100 different people in 100 different locations in Jawa, and you could well get 100 different answers.

Take it back to this same man who has told you it is kebo carubuk, in ten years time, and you could well get a different answer.

I've been down this road, and I know it well.

Ask me what dhapur it is and I'll give you a different answer again:-

mahesa giri luk pitu

Just invented that dhapur --- the same as people in Jawa do when they don't know the answer and don't want to admit it.

semar · 15th May 2011, 12:22 PM

oke thank you for your comment kan you explain me what the pakem van surakarta = mister maisey ????

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2011, 08:07 PM

Semar, the Surakarta Pakem is not my Pakem.

In a matter of differing opinions, yes, I do prefer to follow this pakem, because to the best of my knowledge it is the only pakem that is still in existence and still observed by the Karaton which is the inheritor of Majapahit.

This pakem was prepared upon the orders of GKB Harya Hadiwijaya, by Sunarya, an abdi dalem of the Surakarta Karaton working in the Kridawahana office.It was completed on 24th. April 1924.

It came into the public domain about 25 years ago, at which time I had a loan of it for a week or so, and photographed it in its entirety. A few years ago it was published by the Yayasan Damartaji. Regrettably this publication was done on very poor paper, in fact it looks like reduced photocopies ( the original is in a very large format), and with an almost total lack of care, which has resulted in duplications and omissions in all of the copies of this publication that I have seen.

semar · 16th May 2011, 02:27 AM

thank you for your explaining mister maisey so its possibele to get still this copie`s ore the book ??????????

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2011, 05:28 AM

I don't know if copies are still available.

They were being sold in Indonesia, and also in Holland.

Possibly some member more knowledgeable in this matter may be able to advise you.

Greybeard · 16th May 2011, 06:32 AM

Hello Semar

The book "Dhapur" is offered on E-Bay (Bali-Artshop).

Best regards,

Heinz

Jean · 16th May 2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hello Semar

The book "Dhapur" is offered on E-Bay (Bali-Artshop).

Best regards,

Heinz

This book "Dhapur" is the one published by the Yayasan Damartaji. As advised by Alan, the quality of the photocopy is rather poor but still usable. In my book there are 5 pages missing and 4 are duplicated, mostly for blades with 5 luks.
Best regards
Jean

Greybeard · 16th May 2011, 09:33 AM

I fully agree with Alan and Jean: The printing quality and the paper quality of the book "Dhapur" is poor. In my copy two pages are duplicated and two pages are misplaced, but no pages are missing. All in all I find this book quite useful.

Regards,

Heinz

semar · 16th May 2011, 11:41 AM

hallo guys thank you for the info

simatua · 16th May 2011, 06:17 PM

To kick in an open door: Many information about the keris is lost, and i am afraid some things never come back. To preserve as many as possible i think a noble task is part for us : the keris lover&collector.

Thats why in my opinion its better to mention all things we know, and also mention why we call it like this. mention as many aspects and source of information
By saying notting, information is lost.

Whether its a Fiat Panda, or an Seat Marbella....Join the name game.

About this keris. Nice dapur & pamor, but i see an opening between the wilah and the gandja.....Is there a name for that??

David · 16th May 2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simatua

To kick in an open door: Many information about the keris is lost, and i am afraid some things never come back. To preserve as many as possible i think a noble task is part for us : the keris lover&collector.

Thats why in my opinion its better to mention all things we know, and also mention why we call it like this. mention as many aspects and source of information
By saying notting, information is lost.

Whether its a Fiat Panda, or an Seat Marbella....Join the name game.

How can one ever be certain then that the name being generated is a preservation, a renovation, a regeneration or a complete misconception? What is the guarantee that any name that does not originate from a particular kraton's pakem is at all legitimate, even if it can be found in the writings of respected authors? Clearly what is lost is lost, yet it seems a name can always be found (or created) when enough collectors desire one. So what are the benefits of the name game in these instances? How does knowing the perceived name of a given pamor or dhapur increase our practical knowledge of the keris itself? Frankly i find myself much more interested not so much in what the name of a particular pamor or dhapur might be as much as why that particular pamor or dhapur was chosen in the first place. Of course in most cases this seems to be equal lost information.

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2011, 10:54 PM

Yes Simatua, this approach that you outline is one, perhaps valid, approach for a purely physical object.

For example, glass paper weights, or kerosene lamps.

However, the keris is not a purely physical object, it is a cultural icon and the physical representation of a spiritual idea.

As such it needs a similar type of approach as does research into the Christian Bible, or Al Quran.

It is the human involvement behind the physical object that is relevant, not quite so much the physical object itself, however, without the physical object, the academic research can be more than a little difficult.

The approach of the keris collector who sees only the physical object can possibly be aligned with the approach of the librarian who sees only the illuminated manuscript, but does not attempt to understand the essence of the holy words contained within that manuscript.

I am not saying there is no need for the physical approach, but in the case of the keris this approach is a severely limiting one.

14th May 2011, 06:03 AM	#1
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	dapur ????????????? help hello I have buy yesterday this keris but I don`t know the dapur can some one help me with this keris the keris have a long gandik from 6.5 cm kembang kacang and have 7 loeks regards semar Attached Images

16th May 2011, 06:17 PM	#15
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	Name game To kick in an open door: Many information about the keris is lost, and i am afraid some things never come back. To preserve as many as possible i think a noble task is part for us : the keris lover&collector. Thats why in my opinion its better to mention all things we know, and also mention why we call it like this. mention as many aspects and source of information By saying notting, information is lost. Whether its a Fiat Panda, or an Seat Marbella....Join the name game. About this keris. Nice dapur & pamor, but i see an opening between the wilah and the gandja.....Is there a name for that??

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14th May 2011, 01:34 PM	#2
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Semar Your keris reminds me a bit of the dapur Kebo Teki, but Kebo Teki is a straight dapur ... In any event, you bought a very nice and interesting keris! Congratulations! Regards, Heinz

14th May 2011, 11:27 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I thank you Semar for opening this thread. You have provided a very good example to demonstrate the point I have made in an earlier thread in respect of the lack of relevance of the name applied to the dhapur of a keris. Your keris has a long gandhik and ac kembang kacang, as well as 7 luk. Two experienced keris collectors seem to have reached agreement that the dhapur is kebo teki, but with 7 luk, and as Jean has pointed out, kebo teki is listed as a straight blade in at least one pakem. Now let us look at this question. In the well known Surakarta Pakem we have kebo teki shown. The ricikan are:- three lambe gajah jalen kembang kacang greneng the gandhik is very marginally longer than a normal sized gandhik when considering dhapur of "kebo" type, we need to also consider dhapur of "mahesa" type; mahesa and kebo have the same meaning. In Harsrinuksmo we can find Mahesa Teki. Mahesa Teki is cross referenced to Kebo Teki in this reference. It should be, as it has the same meaning. Harsrinuksmo shows a keris with a gandhik perhaps 4 or 5 times the length of a normal gandhik, and with no kembang kacang, no lambe gajah, no jalen, no greneng.This is what he knew as kebo teki. Interesting. But maybe we can consider one of the other keris in the kebo and mahesa group as a candidate. Harsinuksmo lists 7 keris as "mahesa something or other", and 6 keris as "kebo something or other"; some of these overlap because of cross reference. In Harsrinuksmo one keris is shown that is similar to Semar's keris, and that is Kebo Giri, however, Kebo Giri has a straight blade. OK, maybe the Surakarta Pakem will help us, so let's have a look at it:- kebo lajer, kebo dungkul, kebo dhendheng, kebo teki, mahesa nempuh (3 luk), kebo tedan (5 luk), kebo dhengan (5 luk), mahesa nyabrang (15 luk). Regrettably no blade with a kebo or mahesa designation that has similar form to Semar's keris, and additionally, no 7 luk keris that has similar form. Several of the illustrations for the forms I have listed above are missing from the copy of the pakem I have in front of me, I do have a complete photographic record of the original of this pakem, and will look at the forms I have not yet seen as soon as I get the opportunity. However, we are looking at a keris here that definitely has some age and appears to have been made by a competent maker. So the question arises:- was the maker wrong, or are the pakems wrong? or perhaps the pakem that the maker was using has been lost? If we become involved with the name game we are simply doing the work of a junior clerk or a storeman:- identify, label, record, pigeonhole. The time spent on this endless and fruitless search for names could be much better spent in study of methods of manufacture and relevant social and cultural questions, or even in an attempt to try to understand the way in which keris quality is appraised. There is an enormous amount of knowledge that can be pursued outside the mind deadening waste of time that is the Name Game.

15th May 2011, 02:39 AM	#5
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	thank you mister Maisey I have bring yesterday the keris for cleaning to a man here in Yogya and he say the name of the dapur = kebo teki carubuk ???? regards semar

15th May 2011, 04:12 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Another good example Semar. Dhapur carubuk is listed in the Surakarta Pakem with 7 luk, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, greneng, sraweyan. This pakem does not list kebo carubuk. Harsrinuksmo illustrates a keris with the same features that he identifies as carubuk, but does not list kebo carubuk. Take your keris to 100 different people in 100 different locations in Jawa, and you could well get 100 different answers. Take it back to this same man who has told you it is kebo carubuk, in ten years time, and you could well get a different answer. I've been down this road, and I know it well. Ask me what dhapur it is and I'll give you a different answer again:- mahesa giri luk pitu Just invented that dhapur --- the same as people in Jawa do when they don't know the answer and don't want to admit it.

15th May 2011, 12:22 PM	#7
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	oke thank you for your comment kan you explain me what the pakem van surakarta = mister maisey ???? regards semar

15th May 2011, 08:07 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Semar, the Surakarta Pakem is not my Pakem. In a matter of differing opinions, yes, I do prefer to follow this pakem, because to the best of my knowledge it is the only pakem that is still in existence and still observed by the Karaton which is the inheritor of Majapahit. This pakem was prepared upon the orders of GKB Harya Hadiwijaya, by Sunarya, an abdi dalem of the Surakarta Karaton working in the Kridawahana office.It was completed on 24th. April 1924. It came into the public domain about 25 years ago, at which time I had a loan of it for a week or so, and photographed it in its entirety. A few years ago it was published by the Yayasan Damartaji. Regrettably this publication was done on very poor paper, in fact it looks like reduced photocopies ( the original is in a very large format), and with an almost total lack of care, which has resulted in duplications and omissions in all of the copies of this publication that I have seen.

16th May 2011, 02:27 AM	#9
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	thank you for your explaining mister maisey so its possibele to get still this copie`s ore the book ?????????? regards semar

16th May 2011, 05:28 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I don't know if copies are still available. They were being sold in Indonesia, and also in Holland. Possibly some member more knowledgeable in this matter may be able to advise you.

16th May 2011, 06:32 AM	#11
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Semar The book "Dhapur" is offered on E-Bay (Bali-Artshop). Best regards, Heinz

16th May 2011, 09:33 AM	#13
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	I fully agree with Alan and Jean: The printing quality and the paper quality of the book "Dhapur" is poor. In my copy two pages are duplicated and two pages are misplaced, but no pages are missing. All in all I find this book quite useful. Regards, Heinz

16th May 2011, 11:41 AM	#14
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hallo guys thank you for the info

16th May 2011, 10:54 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes Simatua, this approach that you outline is one, perhaps valid, approach for a purely physical object. For example, glass paper weights, or kerosene lamps. However, the keris is not a purely physical object, it is a cultural icon and the physical representation of a spiritual idea. As such it needs a similar type of approach as does research into the Christian Bible, or Al Quran. It is the human involvement behind the physical object that is relevant, not quite so much the physical object itself, however, without the physical object, the academic research can be more than a little difficult. The approach of the keris collector who sees only the physical object can possibly be aligned with the approach of the librarian who sees only the illuminated manuscript, but does not attempt to understand the essence of the holy words contained within that manuscript. I am not saying there is no need for the physical approach, but in the case of the keris this approach is a severely limiting one.