old german (?!) hunting sword/dagger to date

francantolin · 16th November 2016, 12:01 PM

Hello everybody,

I have bought this small hunting sword with his small knife
but I'm not sure about age, exact origin and metal for the hilt and scabbard mounts.

I think it is a german model, look 18th century ( ?!) but the small knife seems really recent ( there is a ''T'' stamped cf pictures) so maybe 20th century ?,
for the hilt, there is a 13 engraved, does it mean steel, silver alloy, silver ?

Kind regards

Francesco

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 04:57 AM

Any opinion ?

13 hallmark ?!

kronckew · 18th November 2016, 07:52 AM

nice one. complete trousse-like set. have seen this karabela shaped hilt on a number of french attributed hunting swords and variously described as 'european' or 'continental' from 18th & 19th century, some with solingen blades. almost invariably without scabbard or small dressing companion knife. blades on the ones i've seen vary from straight to curved, sometimes with a clipped point. i guess it could also have been very early 20th c. by someone who admired and copied an earlier example. i leave that attribution to those more expert. i would have thought late 19th myself, but the almost mint condition IS unusual. the sword looks like it may have a bit more age, is there patination on it's blade? hard to tell from the photo.

canos · 18th November 2016, 10:00 AM

It's a Karabela, Poland, 18. century.
Compare: fischerauktionen.ch / Sept. 2015 / Lot. 1229

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 10:28 AM

Hello Kronckew,

thank you for your message,
I will post some picures of the blade,

for the ''13'' hallmark, I think I was wrong:

the numerals were ''strange'': not a classic 1 and 3;
I think now that they are arabic numeral: a 4 and a 2 : so ''42'' will be written,
1842 ? 1942 ? Ottoman or north african ?...

( sure it looks like german daggers, the hilt form is oriental too ?)..

Kind regards

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 10:37 AM

Do you think I'll post it in the ethnographic weapons forum ?

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 12:43 PM

tank you Canos,

i'll look.

her some pictures of the blade ( classic ) one of the hilt with worm holes so must not be too recent ...

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 12:45 PM

pictures

fernando · 18th November 2016, 03:51 PM

If (if) this hilt were made of silver, this would be the German/Prussian hallmark Lot system. The 13 lot purity corresponds to 812/000 silver.

.

canos · 18th November 2016, 05:03 PM

The same type, compare also:
galeriedemars.fr / Armes blanches / sabre karabela, Polonais

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 06:08 PM

thank you Fernando !!

I looked about the lot stamps you told me and found a site about these lots

if it's like that, it will be an old austrian model of hunting dagger
( silver 812 as you told me ) Pretty cool if it's like that !!

http://www.silvercollection.it/austr...hallmarks.html

( the T in the O on the blade of the small knife looks too like the old stamp )

Perhaps do you know how we can test silver authenticity ?

Kind regards

fernando · 18th November 2016, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

...Perhaps do you know how we can test silver authenticity ?..

No, but there are members who can say something about that.

kronckew · 18th November 2016, 06:37 PM

a tiny drop of bleach on silver will turn it black, the purer the silver, the faster it reacts. when satisfied, wash it off & re-polish the spot. if it DOESN'T blacken, it isn't silver. (clean the area beforehand to make sure there is no oil or grease/wax coating to give a false negative...)

egg yolk will also blacken real silver quite quickly, it has sulphur in the yolk part.

francantolin · 18th November 2016, 07:23 PM

Ok tank you !!

I'll try and tell you ( better I think to start with the egg yolk !!)

16th November 2016, 12:01 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	old german (?!) hunting sword/dagger to date Hello everybody, I have bought this small hunting sword with his small knife but I'm not sure about age, exact origin and metal for the hilt and scabbard mounts. I think it is a german model, look 18th century ( ?!) but the small knife seems really recent ( there is a ''T'' stamped cf pictures) so maybe 20th century ?, for the hilt, there is a 13 engraved, does it mean steel, silver alloy, silver ? Kind regards Francesco Attached Images

18th November 2016, 12:45 PM	#8
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	pictures Attached Images

18th November 2016, 03:51 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	If (if) this hilt were made of silver, this would be the German/Prussian hallmark Lot system. The 13 lot purity corresponds to 812/000 silver. . Attached Images

18th November 2016, 04:57 AM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	Any opinion ? 13 hallmark ?!

18th November 2016, 07:52 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	nice one. complete trousse-like set. have seen this karabela shaped hilt on a number of french attributed hunting swords and variously described as 'european' or 'continental' from 18th & 19th century, some with solingen blades. almost invariably without scabbard or small dressing companion knife. blades on the ones i've seen vary from straight to curved, sometimes with a clipped point. i guess it could also have been very early 20th c. by someone who admired and copied an earlier example. i leave that attribution to those more expert. i would have thought late 19th myself, but the almost mint condition IS unusual. the sword looks like it may have a bit more age, is there patination on it's blade? hard to tell from the photo.

18th November 2016, 10:00 AM	#4
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	It's a Karabela, Poland, 18. century. Compare: fischerauktionen.ch / Sept. 2015 / Lot. 1229

18th November 2016, 10:28 AM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	Hello Kronckew, thank you for your message, I will post some picures of the blade, for the ''13'' hallmark, I think I was wrong: the numerals were ''strange'': not a classic 1 and 3; I think now that they are arabic numeral: a 4 and a 2 : so ''42'' will be written, 1842 ? 1942 ? Ottoman or north african ?... ( sure it looks like german daggers, the hilt form is oriental too ?).. Kind regards

18th November 2016, 10:37 AM	#6
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	Do you think I'll post it in the ethnographic weapons forum ?

18th November 2016, 12:43 PM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	tank you Canos, i'll look. her some pictures of the blade ( classic ) one of the hilt with worm holes so must not be too recent ...

18th November 2016, 05:03 PM	#10
canos Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 28	The same type, compare also: galeriedemars.fr / Armes blanches / sabre karabela, Polonais

18th November 2016, 06:08 PM	#11
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	thank you Fernando !! I looked about the lot stamps you told me and found a site about these lots if it's like that, it will be an old austrian model of hunting dagger ( silver 812 as you told me ) Pretty cool if it's like that !! http://www.silvercollection.it/austr...hallmarks.html ( the T in the O on the blade of the small knife looks too like the old stamp ) Perhaps do you know how we can test silver authenticity ? Kind regards

18th November 2016, 06:37 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	a tiny drop of bleach on silver will turn it black, the purer the silver, the faster it reacts. when satisfied, wash it off & re-polish the spot. if it DOESN'T blacken, it isn't silver. (clean the area beforehand to make sure there is no oil or grease/wax coating to give a false negative...) egg yolk will also blacken real silver quite quickly, it has sulphur in the yolk part.

18th November 2016, 07:23 PM	#14
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 813	Ok tank you !! I'll try and tell you ( better I think to start with the egg yolk !!)