Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th December 2011, 09:33 PM   #1
Kirk
Member
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Posts: 11
Default Manding dagger/short-sword?

The overall length is 24in. and the blade measures 18 3/4 in.
Attached Images
   
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2011, 10:31 AM   #2
Stan S.
Member
 
Stan S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Brooklyn, NY USA
Posts: 227
Default

Hello fellow Brooklynite! While African swords are not my specialty, this is quite nice.
Stan S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2011, 04:06 PM   #3
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hi Kirk,

Welcome to the forum.

Could you post some close-up pictures of the blade? In particular, I'd like to see those fullers up close when time allows...

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2011, 12:22 AM   #4
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,572
Default

Hi Kirk,

Let me add to the words of welcome, I'm always delighted to see more members with an interest in Sahel arms and armor.

This is a very interesting short sword, I am not entirely sure regarding an ethnic attribution, this is a bit out of my normal area. However I saw one of these for sale the other week, shorter and the blade of a lesser quality. But with a scabbard. I will try to dig up some photos.

The style is certainly intriguing and I think Manding is probably not far off. I will take a look through my notes and see if anything turns up.

At any rate, a very nice piece exhibiting fine workmanship.

All the best,

Iain
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2011, 12:57 PM   #5
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,572
Default

A link to a photo album of a similar item - not mine unfortunately.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102943...feat=directlink
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2011, 08:51 PM   #6
Kirk
Member
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Posts: 11
Default

Hi Everyone,

Wuzzup Brooklyn!!!

I'm a newbie collector with a big interest in swords from the Sahel and Europe. This is the best place, I find, for my continuing research into the subject.

This piece was bought on ebay in the summer and I've been looking for similar pieces ever since.
Here's a picture I found with a similar sword from CAPTAIN CANOT; OR,

TWENTY YEARS OF AN AFRICAN SLAVER


here's a link: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2303...4-h/23034-h.htm

Notice the sword the sword-bearer is carrying.
Attached Images
 
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2011, 09:41 PM   #7
Mauro
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 78
Default

Compliment Kirk, for the nice dagger. The blade looks a shortened sword blade but it would be necessary some better photos of the terminal part of the blade to be sure. I already saw other sword like that and I always asked myself which tribe of the Sahel made them. I am not sure it is Manding. Thanks for sharing
Mauro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 04:33 PM   #8
Kirk
Member
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Posts: 11
Default

The Manding is designated as a language group, who share a similar dialect and live many of the countries in the West African region. They can be found from the Gambia to the Côte d'Ivoire and include the Bambara, Dyula, Mandingo, Maninke, and Malinke ( and probably many others). Granted, migration and assimilation being taken into account, I would imagine variation in hilt design is bound to diverse and imaginative.

I've noticed three kinds of hilts attributed to the Manding people. Is there a list or typography chart that clarifies or discusses this in more detail?
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 05:29 PM   #9
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

The sword looks to be from Senegal. The photo of the man with the spear is of the Dan tribe based on the style of the spear. Below is an example of a Manding dagger that was in my collection a few years ago. too bad there is no scabbard with your sword it would help identify it for sure.
Attached Images
  
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 05:51 PM   #10
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,572
Default

Hi Kirk,

The Manding as a linguistic group rather than an "tribe" per say, is well noted. They are an extremely diverse group of peoples found in an extremely wide ranging area.

Unfortunately I an not aware of a typology or solid guidelines for range of hilts encountered among the Mande ethnic groups.

The only real generalization I can think from my own experience is the propensity among Manding swords for a terminal on the pommels. There is of course a little nub on the end of your sword and the 'nubs' which are seen on Manding sabers (by this I mean the swords that are often European cavalry sabers with simple leather hilts and a brass nub) as well as swords from Liberia or Ivory coast with wooden hilts and again a small metal nub. It seems to be a motif that recurs frequently.

Lew brings up an interesting point with the Dan or Gio people attribution for the drawing you showed. The Gio are of course a Mande speaking people. However I always thought they were centered in Liberia and Ivory Coast... Not Senegal. However I could be wrong, perhaps Lew can clarify? Otherwise, purely from the drawing and the caption in the book of a Mandingo chief, I would assume the Mandingo group of Sierra Leone?

I have to admit to having little experience with any of the Mande ethnic groups and their weaponry, but I want to state again that this is a nice piece. I suspect as well it might be a shortened blade, but that in no way detracts from it.

I wanted to show off a few other examples but needed to wait until the auctions ended. I am uploading a couple photos as well as the links. Sadly this first link I forgot to bid on. A very similar piece to yours, although shorter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/26090728093...9#ht_500wt_1301

And the second, a set of two that has similarities in design of the hilts although executed in different materials and perhaps a bit newer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/18077113358...#ht_1507wt_1298

Hopefully some of this is some use, I only wish I could give more clear answers or directions.

All the best,

Iain
Attached Images
  
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 07:21 PM   #11
Kirk
Member
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
The sword looks to be from Senegal. The photo of the man with the spear is of the Dan tribe based on the style of the spear. Below is an example of a Manding dagger that was in my collection a few years ago. too bad there is no scabbard with your sword it would help identify it for sure.


Hey Lew
Its unfortunate that it didn't come with a scabbard. It would have helped in identification and cataloging of these old and overlooked pieces.

By the way, have you come across any pieces that are indigenous to the Wollof or Serer people of Senegal? I've never heard or come across one, but for a people to be surrounded by cultures which use swords and daggers (Tuareg, Mande, and Berber) I find it strange that none of their weapons have been found or identified.
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 07:41 PM   #12
Kirk
Member
 
Kirk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Brooklyn, N.Y.
Posts: 11
Default

Hey Ian,

The "nub" or "pommel cap" does seem to be a common design for both swords and daggers of the Mande/Manding people. It looks like a combination of Takouba and Kaskara pommel designs. The nub of the Kaskara pommel and the cap of the Takouba pommel. The third type I've noticed is where the upper and lower guards are the same and the pommel ends with a leather ring. Just a thought. I have a theory that one of these are of an older design from the classic or medieval times.


What makes you suspect the blade was shortened? I'll try to post better images of the blade for better analysis. What century do you think it was made?

Guess what, that Manding dagger with the deteriorated sheath you were looking at on ebay. I got it. Sorry dude. it was too nice of a piece to let pass. I'll see if I can get some photos of the hilt for you.
Attached Images
  
Kirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 08:22 PM   #13
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

Here are some Senegal daggers sorry maybe I was confused?
Attached Images
 
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2011, 09:13 PM   #14
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,572
Default

Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?), I've heard of these coming from Senegal before as well, often attributed to Tuaregs. I've never been sure of the real age and story behind these though and what the real ethnic attribution is. Wildly different than the normal teleks and arm daggers though!

I certainly agree the brass work shares some similarities with the piece under discussion.

Iain
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2011, 05:38 PM   #15
Lew
(deceased)
 
Lew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 3,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?)
Iain


Nope
Copied them from the internet
Lew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 06:48 AM   #16
thinreadline
Member
 
thinreadline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1,137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain
Hi Lew,

No worries, I was just unsure if I'd missed something and the Dan people were also in Senegal.

Nice selection of daggers (yours?), I've heard of these coming from Senegal before as well, often attributed to Tuaregs. I've never been sure of the real age and story behind these though and what the real ethnic attribution is. Wildly different than the normal teleks and arm daggers though!

I certainly agree the brass work shares some similarities with the piece under discussion.

Iain


Hi
This picture also appears in Spring's African Arms & Armour where they are idenrified as ( from left to right ) as : 1. Manding dagger from the Bissagos Islands ; 2. Sierra Leone ; 3. Senegal ; 4. Reguibat Arab, S Morrocco .
thinreadline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 06:49 AM   #17
thinreadline
Member
 
thinreadline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wirral
Posts: 1,137
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Here are some Senegal daggers sorry maybe I was confused?


Hi
This picture also appears in Spring's African Arms & Armour where they are idenrified as ( from left to right ) as : 1. Manding dagger from the Bissagos Islands ; 2. Sierra Leone ; 3. Senegal ; 4. Reguibat Arab, S Morrocco .
thinreadline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th January 2012, 12:28 PM   #18
Iain
Member
 
Iain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Morava - Olomoucký kraj - Czech Republic
Posts: 1,572
Default

Thanks for the ID from Spring, interesting little daggers for me. Mainly because unlike teleks or more typical arm daggers I can't recall actually every seeing on of this fancy variety being worn in a period photograph.
Iain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:51 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.