Removing old oil from kris: Necessary?

silkreeler · 19th July 2009, 02:45 PM

Hello everyone!! This is my first post in this forum and I must say I'm happy to find folks with similar interest

I am new to kris - just got two of them couple months ago - and still got much to learn about them. Having been exposed to Iaijutsu before, I am more familiar with katana than kris. So here are my questions ...

In Japanese sword care, we always remove the old oil prior to applying the new oil. Traditionally this is done by using the uchiko powder; however, in these days practical modern enthusiasts like me prefer using 95% alcohol solution to remove the old oil. In couple minutes, the alcohol will evaporate completely and the blade will be ready for oiling.

However, I just learned that this process is not recommended for krisses. Well, at least not from esoteric point of view. The guys who help me with the esoteric part said it's a BIG no-no. When I asked them, they said it's simply "the rule". According to them, I could use as much alcohol as I want with new modern blades with no "isi" (spiritual being inside) and indeed the result would be good, but the beings in old krisses simply don't like alcohol.

Sorry for the kinky esoteric part, but according to David I can discuss that sort of thing here

Anyway, since alcohol and uchiko are out of the question, how are we supposed to properly remove the old oil from krisses then? I follow the old regimen of burning incense to the krisses every Tuesday Kliwon & Friday Kliwon eves, so I am fully aware of the need of proper re-oiling to protect them from the smoke. Al Maisey, if you read this post, I recall you said you kept your blades in plastic sheets during storage. Well, we may take a different path here - I don't suppose you incense your blades as often as I do? The thing is, I love my blades and I prefer to avoid warangan as much as possible. Indeed, I want to be able to accomplish what you did - keeping blades looking like they just got stained yesterday after many, many years. But like I said, the regimen for my blades may be more severe. What can I do to better protect my blades?

These days I typically pat the old oil out of my krisses using ladies' facial oil sheets, then I proceeded by applying the new oil using soft brush. I always do this after burning the incense. FYI, the facial oil sheets are the polymer ones, not paper (paper could have been processed by acid).

So .. to summarize my questions:
1. Do you guys typically remove the old oil prior to applying the new one?
2. What is the best way to do that?
3. Will patting the blade with synthetic facial sheets roughly twice every month wear down my krisses?

Thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2009, 12:47 AM

Welcome to our little group Silkreeler.

As I understand it, the primary reason for removal of old oil from the surface of a Japanese blade is to allow the blade to be read. If the oil remains on the surface, it will not cause deterioration of the blade, but it can interfere with the ability to read the blade.

A similar situation can arise with keris blades, however, since the material in many keris blades is textured, and often a little porous, the removal of oil each time a blade is oiled is not really necessary. In Jawa the oils that we use are often based on coconut, and over a period of time coconut oil can dry out and harden and leave a deposit on the blade.This deposit generally will not harm the blade surface, but it can make it difficult to read. Here in Australia I do not use coconut based oils, and the oils which I do use do not tend to leave a deposit as do the coconut based ones.

When it has been necessary for me remove old oil from a blade I have washed the blade with mineral turpentine, followed by a rinse with WD40, allow the WD 40 to dry overnight and then apply scented oil --- if that is your preference --- or a good gun oil or light machine oil, both of which will give better protection than the scented oils.I personally use scented oil, but this is a personal preference.

Patting a keris blade with a synthetic facial tissue will undoubtedly cause wear to a blade, or any other material, if done often enough, however, at the rate of twice a month I feel that the period necessary to cause such wear might stretch to many thousands of years.

Silkreeler, you have asked if I use menyan for my kerises as often as you do.

I do not use menyan for my kerises at all.

The ritual of offering menyan smoke to a keris is a part of a specific belief system. I have a very good understanding of this belief system, but I do not subscribe to it, nor do I practice the rituals which are a part of it.

For me to engage in one ritual extracted from an entire belief system would be as pointless, and as offensive, as for a person who had no belief in Jesus Christ to accept holy communion, or for a person with no belief in Allah to attend Friday prayers. One cannot extract that which one wishes from a system of belief and follow just that single ritual, for any ritual to be of value it needs to form a part of a whole.

The matter of spiritual presence in a keris is one which is very little understood, and although there is no bar to the discussion of the esoteric aspects of the keris in this discussion group, my personal feeling is that it is distinctly inappropriate to attempt to engage in discussion of the more difficult aspects of keris belief in the environment of any public discussion group.

Consider this:- should one attempt to discuss quantum theory in a situation where that discussion is open to people who have not yet begun to learn the necessary philosophical and material concepts for the comprehension of Max Planck's equations, and their further development, the only possible result of such discussion would be a hodge podge of half understood ideas and misconceptions.

Similarly, if one wishes to come to some understanding of the nature of the keris in a particular cultural context, one must begin by first coming to an understanding of the relevant culture.

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 06:31 AM

Many thanks for the informative reply, Al. It's good enough for me to know that the prolonged presence of old oil on the blade does not damage it. Just one more question: How come people say when you oil your blade too much the old oil will go rancid and in the long run will damage the blade? Doesn't it mean that old oil residue is bad for the blade? Or is it the quantity?

I WILL stay away from the esoteric discussion and did not intend to generate discussion about it. The only reason I brought up the subject briefly is just to explain my regimen - which I am fully aware as being not very common in this day and age - and get the necessary relevant technical information to support it. I myself am uncomfortable discussing these matters in person with a modern Javanese or even Balinese as different cultures have different beliefs regarding krisses (my Balinese friends tend to warn against having a "living kris" and advised to be very careful with such an object unless one's fully informed about what to do with it, so there's another cultural perspective). So yes, let's keep the esoteric part very minimum

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2009, 07:52 AM

It depends on the oil used.

If you use a coconut based oil, or some other oil based on fats, yes, it can easily go rancid, and if you leave it long enough it will harden into a skin-like substance. I have never seen a blade actually damaged by this substance, and it will wash off with mineral turps.

However, if you use something like medicinal parrafin or baby oil as the base, it will not go rancid. If you use light machine oil or a good gun oil it will not go rancid.The light oils such as medicinal parrafin tend to dry out over time, leaving a very light residue that brushes away easily with the next application of oil. The other oils such as gun oil, provide a long term protective film. Neither of these types of oil will cause damage to a blade under any conditions.

It is not really so uncommon for blades to be smoked over menyan, but this ritual is a part of a total belief system. It cannot stand by itself.

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 11:25 AM

Good enough, it's much more clear to me now. Right now my modified regimen looks like this, please advise if you have a better idea.

1. I will oil the blade roughly twice every month, each time after the menyan session. No need to remove the old oil. Do you advise more frequent or less oiling?
2. I'm not really sure if I can use mineral oil (gotta ask my guys first about it), but IN CASE I'm stuck with coconut based oil, then will the skin-like substance gradually oxidize the metal surface and dim the pamor? Which is the lesser evil - leaving the skin there and cleaning it occasionally with turp oil, or patting dry the blade from time to time with facial paper?

A. G. Maisey · 20th July 2009, 02:54 PM

Silkreeler, please forgive me, but I feel that whatever advice I may be able to provide will not be of any value to you.

I suggest that you consult with your most knowledgeable friends and follow their advice.

silkreeler · 20th July 2009, 03:54 PM

Too bad cause honestly I found the advises to be valuable so far. So much for East-Meet-West approach where people hope to get the best combination of tradition and technology. I will find my answer somewhere else. Thanks for your time anyway.

David · 28th July 2009, 06:36 PM

Hi Silkreeler. Don't know if you are still out there, but if so then welcome to the forum. I was away for the week and only just now have i seen your post.
I am just a little bit surprised that after a very brief conversation with just one of our many members you are already giving up and off to "find your answers elsewhere". I personally have a great deal of respect for Alan and his opinions, though i must point out that our membership here is rather large and there are many Indonesian members as well as Westerners to comment and/or advise. If you are looking for East-meets-West solutions i can think of no better place to find them. However, patience is a virtue that is often rewarded around here.

Personally i use scented oils with a mineral oil (medicinal paraffin) base. Like you i also use incense in a ritual way. I do understand and in many ways agree with Alan's comments in regards to using specific rituals outside of the context of specific belief system. All i can say in regards to that is that i have my own belief system which is not the same as the one in which menyan is a part, but that the practice of using incense on keris is very much in line with my own personal practices and beliefs. I do not follow the same calendar for the timing of this practice as i am not a Muslim. From my perspective what is important is that whatever rituals one uses they must have some meaning and personal connection for you or they are merely empty practices with no power whatsoever.
I have not found the need to remove previous oil from the blades before applying new oil. I generally oil monthly.
Silkreeler, only you can decide what the right practices for the keeping of your keris must be. Obviously you have an Indonesian source of information from "your guys", but keep in mind that even in a tradition cultural context you are likely to find a great variant of information of what is or is not proper in the care and treatment of keris from knowledgeable people who live within the culture. I don't say this to imply that your sources could be "wrong", only to suggest that there might be alternative "right" methods as well. But ultimately only you can decide what feels right and is appropriate for you keris needs.

semar · 12th August 2009, 07:43 AM

hello silkreeler

David has a point .
Use yout feelings when you whant to theak care of your keris
Because al keris that we collect are made for other peopel
and the first owner that has the keris made bij the empu
know exactly how and what to do because the empu tell him

regards semar

19th July 2009, 02:45 PM	#1
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Removing old oil from kris: Necessary? Hello everyone!! This is my first post in this forum and I must say I'm happy to find folks with similar interest I am new to kris - just got two of them couple months ago - and still got much to learn about them. Having been exposed to Iaijutsu before, I am more familiar with katana than kris. So here are my questions ... In Japanese sword care, we always remove the old oil prior to applying the new oil. Traditionally this is done by using the uchiko powder; however, in these days practical modern enthusiasts like me prefer using 95% alcohol solution to remove the old oil. In couple minutes, the alcohol will evaporate completely and the blade will be ready for oiling. However, I just learned that this process is not recommended for krisses. Well, at least not from esoteric point of view. The guys who help me with the esoteric part said it's a BIG no-no. When I asked them, they said it's simply "the rule". According to them, I could use as much alcohol as I want with new modern blades with no "isi" (spiritual being inside) and indeed the result would be good, but the beings in old krisses simply don't like alcohol. Sorry for the kinky esoteric part, but according to David I can discuss that sort of thing here Anyway, since alcohol and uchiko are out of the question, how are we supposed to properly remove the old oil from krisses then? I follow the old regimen of burning incense to the krisses every Tuesday Kliwon & Friday Kliwon eves, so I am fully aware of the need of proper re-oiling to protect them from the smoke. Al Maisey, if you read this post, I recall you said you kept your blades in plastic sheets during storage. Well, we may take a different path here - I don't suppose you incense your blades as often as I do? The thing is, I love my blades and I prefer to avoid warangan as much as possible. Indeed, I want to be able to accomplish what you did - keeping blades looking like they just got stained yesterday after many, many years. But like I said, the regimen for my blades may be more severe. What can I do to better protect my blades? These days I typically pat the old oil out of my krisses using ladies' facial oil sheets, then I proceeded by applying the new oil using soft brush. I always do this after burning the incense. FYI, the facial oil sheets are the polymer ones, not paper (paper could have been processed by acid). So .. to summarize my questions: 1. Do you guys typically remove the old oil prior to applying the new one? 2. What is the best way to do that? 3. Will patting the blade with synthetic facial sheets roughly twice every month wear down my krisses? Thanks! Last edited by silkreeler; 19th July 2009 at 03:06 PM.

20th July 2009, 12:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	Welcome to our little group Silkreeler. As I understand it, the primary reason for removal of old oil from the surface of a Japanese blade is to allow the blade to be read. If the oil remains on the surface, it will not cause deterioration of the blade, but it can interfere with the ability to read the blade. A similar situation can arise with keris blades, however, since the material in many keris blades is textured, and often a little porous, the removal of oil each time a blade is oiled is not really necessary. In Jawa the oils that we use are often based on coconut, and over a period of time coconut oil can dry out and harden and leave a deposit on the blade.This deposit generally will not harm the blade surface, but it can make it difficult to read. Here in Australia I do not use coconut based oils, and the oils which I do use do not tend to leave a deposit as do the coconut based ones. When it has been necessary for me remove old oil from a blade I have washed the blade with mineral turpentine, followed by a rinse with WD40, allow the WD 40 to dry overnight and then apply scented oil --- if that is your preference --- or a good gun oil or light machine oil, both of which will give better protection than the scented oils.I personally use scented oil, but this is a personal preference. Patting a keris blade with a synthetic facial tissue will undoubtedly cause wear to a blade, or any other material, if done often enough, however, at the rate of twice a month I feel that the period necessary to cause such wear might stretch to many thousands of years. Silkreeler, you have asked if I use menyan for my kerises as often as you do. I do not use menyan for my kerises at all. The ritual of offering menyan smoke to a keris is a part of a specific belief system. I have a very good understanding of this belief system, but I do not subscribe to it, nor do I practice the rituals which are a part of it. For me to engage in one ritual extracted from an entire belief system would be as pointless, and as offensive, as for a person who had no belief in Jesus Christ to accept holy communion, or for a person with no belief in Allah to attend Friday prayers. One cannot extract that which one wishes from a system of belief and follow just that single ritual, for any ritual to be of value it needs to form a part of a whole. The matter of spiritual presence in a keris is one which is very little understood, and although there is no bar to the discussion of the esoteric aspects of the keris in this discussion group, my personal feeling is that it is distinctly inappropriate to attempt to engage in discussion of the more difficult aspects of keris belief in the environment of any public discussion group. Consider this:- should one attempt to discuss quantum theory in a situation where that discussion is open to people who have not yet begun to learn the necessary philosophical and material concepts for the comprehension of Max Planck's equations, and their further development, the only possible result of such discussion would be a hodge podge of half understood ideas and misconceptions. Similarly, if one wishes to come to some understanding of the nature of the keris in a particular cultural context, one must begin by first coming to an understanding of the relevant culture. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th July 2009 at 01:07 AM.

20th July 2009, 06:31 AM	#3
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Many thanks for the informative reply, Al. It's good enough for me to know that the prolonged presence of old oil on the blade does not damage it. Just one more question: How come people say when you oil your blade too much the old oil will go rancid and in the long run will damage the blade? Doesn't it mean that old oil residue is bad for the blade? Or is it the quantity? I WILL stay away from the esoteric discussion and did not intend to generate discussion about it. The only reason I brought up the subject briefly is just to explain my regimen - which I am fully aware as being not very common in this day and age - and get the necessary relevant technical information to support it. I myself am uncomfortable discussing these matters in person with a modern Javanese or even Balinese as different cultures have different beliefs regarding krisses (my Balinese friends tend to warn against having a "living kris" and advised to be very careful with such an object unless one's fully informed about what to do with it, so there's another cultural perspective). So yes, let's keep the esoteric part very minimum

20th July 2009, 07:52 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	It depends on the oil used. If you use a coconut based oil, or some other oil based on fats, yes, it can easily go rancid, and if you leave it long enough it will harden into a skin-like substance. I have never seen a blade actually damaged by this substance, and it will wash off with mineral turps. However, if you use something like medicinal parrafin or baby oil as the base, it will not go rancid. If you use light machine oil or a good gun oil it will not go rancid.The light oils such as medicinal parrafin tend to dry out over time, leaving a very light residue that brushes away easily with the next application of oil. The other oils such as gun oil, provide a long term protective film. Neither of these types of oil will cause damage to a blade under any conditions. It is not really so uncommon for blades to be smoked over menyan, but this ritual is a part of a total belief system. It cannot stand by itself.

20th July 2009, 11:25 AM	#5
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Good enough, it's much more clear to me now. Right now my modified regimen looks like this, please advise if you have a better idea. 1. I will oil the blade roughly twice every month, each time after the menyan session. No need to remove the old oil. Do you advise more frequent or less oiling? 2. I'm not really sure if I can use mineral oil (gotta ask my guys first about it), but IN CASE I'm stuck with coconut based oil, then will the skin-like substance gradually oxidize the metal surface and dim the pamor? Which is the lesser evil - leaving the skin there and cleaning it occasionally with turp oil, or patting dry the blade from time to time with facial paper?

20th July 2009, 02:54 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	Silkreeler, please forgive me, but I feel that whatever advice I may be able to provide will not be of any value to you. I suggest that you consult with your most knowledgeable friends and follow their advice.

20th July 2009, 03:54 PM	#7
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Too bad cause honestly I found the advises to be valuable so far. So much for East-Meet-West approach where people hope to get the best combination of tradition and technology. I will find my answer somewhere else. Thanks for your time anyway.

28th July 2009, 06:36 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,034	Hi Silkreeler. Don't know if you are still out there, but if so then welcome to the forum. I was away for the week and only just now have i seen your post. I am just a little bit surprised that after a very brief conversation with just one of our many members you are already giving up and off to "find your answers elsewhere". I personally have a great deal of respect for Alan and his opinions, though i must point out that our membership here is rather large and there are many Indonesian members as well as Westerners to comment and/or advise. If you are looking for East-meets-West solutions i can think of no better place to find them. However, patience is a virtue that is often rewarded around here. Personally i use scented oils with a mineral oil (medicinal paraffin) base. Like you i also use incense in a ritual way. I do understand and in many ways agree with Alan's comments in regards to using specific rituals outside of the context of specific belief system. All i can say in regards to that is that i have my own belief system which is not the same as the one in which menyan is a part, but that the practice of using incense on keris is very much in line with my own personal practices and beliefs. I do not follow the same calendar for the timing of this practice as i am not a Muslim. From my perspective what is important is that whatever rituals one uses they must have some meaning and personal connection for you or they are merely empty practices with no power whatsoever. I have not found the need to remove previous oil from the blades before applying new oil. I generally oil monthly. Silkreeler, only you can decide what the right practices for the keeping of your keris must be. Obviously you have an Indonesian source of information from "your guys", but keep in mind that even in a tradition cultural context you are likely to find a great variant of information of what is or is not proper in the care and treatment of keris from knowledgeable people who live within the culture. I don't say this to imply that your sources could be "wrong", only to suggest that there might be alternative "right" methods as well. But ultimately only you can decide what feels right and is appropriate for you keris needs.

12th August 2009, 07:43 AM	#9
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello silkreeler David has a point . Use yout feelings when you whant to theak care of your keris Because al keris that we collect are made for other peopel and the first owner that has the keris made bij the empu know exactly how and what to do because the empu tell him regards semar