Help Identify this Sword

Tom · 26th April 2009, 07:04 PM

First, hope I put this in the right section.

I know nothing about swords so I'm just guessing here as to what this sword is.

The history of the sword is;
About 40 or more years ago my father came home with this wet muddy sword and pommel (?)
He washed it off with a water hose and wiped down, it was in remarkable shape under the Pocomoke river mud.

He (my father) had found this sword in the black sticky mud at a very low tide on the banks of the Pocomoke river.

I have searched the www and I can't find anything on it, a friend found a similar picture but not exact, he then referred me to this site.

the markings on the sword are as follow:
on the blade is a design then initials?
<<<((( D.O. S.R. )))>>> not those designs of course, that's a layout of how it's etched (?) those initials and design look to be raised.

then up close to the handle (?) on the upper end of the blade is a oval shape with the following letter engraved around the oval.
FR. NEEEF SOHNE SOLINGER

this is the oval with the above words
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-016S-4.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-014S-3.jpg

both sides of this tip look the same
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-011S-5.jpg

this is where the initials with the design on each end of the initials lay on the blade
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-009S-5.jpg

the number 77 stamped in here

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-008S-4.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-007S-6.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-006S-8.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...VC-005S-11.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-002S-9.jpg

kisak · 27th April 2009, 07:02 PM

Most likely a ceremonial 19th century sword for some orden (Freemasons for example).

Jim McDougall · 27th April 2009, 08:42 PM

As Kisak has observed, this sword appears to be a fraternal type sword of the 19th century. Actually I have discussed this sword with Tom in some degree already, and asked him to post it here as I would like to initiate some interest in this very esoteric area of collecting.

The sword hilt itself is of the general form that seems to have derived from military swords of the Civil War, in this case, the U.S. M1840 NCO sword, which had nearly identical hilt with knights head pommel, same style crossguard and fluted ivory grips. The Ames Sword co., who produced these, went into the production of the fraternal and Masonic style swords that developed from them in the years after the war. In addition to the well established Masonic groups and fraternal groups, there were many post military regimental organizations and patriotic groups.

In a phone conversation today with Mr. Joe Marino, one of the authors of the comprehensive book "The American Fraternal Sword" (2008), we discussed this particular acronym, which does not correspond to any of the known groups catalogued thus far. In years of research, he and his co-authors compiled the collections and data that reflect the amazing numbers of these types of groups.
It is known that outfitting companies and producers of regalia interchanged these almost universal hilt components, sich as the knights head pommel, crossguard and so on. The blades were often imported, such as this Solingen blade from latter 19th c.

It would seem that the most likely means of discovering the title of the group indicated by this acronym, D.O.S.R. may come from research in local history of the area where this was found. Perhaps this was a preliminary title for a group later known under another title. As suggestions for the words, possibly something like democratic order of the sons of the revolution or to that effect. There seem to have been many similar titles.

One of the key producers of fraternal type swords was the Frank Henderson Co. of Kalamazoo, Michigan from 1850-through 1893, when they began working with the Ames Co. This illustrates the possibility of using Ames components from the militia and non commissioned officers swords.

While these swords have often been considerably disregarded as they are clearly ceremonial and costume elements rather than weapons, they have developed a distinct sector of thier own in collecting with their fascinating associations in Americana. One of the foremost authorities on Americana, Mr. Norm Flayderman, wrote the foreward in Mr. Marino's book, probably one of the most stellar endorsements for anyone studying this field.

We'll continue researching!!!

Welcome to our forum Tom! and thank you for posting this!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 02:09 AM

Hi All, its been awhile

,

I can't add much to what Jim has already printed, but, its not a one off. Here is another in better shape.

http://flintlocksarsenal.blogspot.com/2008/09/dosr.html

I would be looking for a possible German-American Organization?

I hope this helps
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2009, 02:57 AM

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Hi Jim, worse than UFO's.... work

. Could be worse though. I did a quick google and think this may help. I think it is a German American group in Columbus Ohio ? Note the Gothic DOSR. Hopefully this will get Tom started.

All the Best
Jeff

Tom · 28th April 2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!!

Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Yes, very good, I have searched the net over and I never found anything close.
Even with the info provided which I greatly appreciate, I still am lost, sorry, I'm just a dumb'ol country boy searching and not really knowing what to search for.
so far we know the sword is a 19th century sword, correct?

Will it ever be possible to know how this sword ended up in the mud of my home town of Pocomoke's river?
How it may have made it's way here. etc.
Was it dropped from Jeff's UFO? LOL J/K

Thanks Guys this is fascinating to me

Jeff D · 28th April 2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom

Yes, very good, I have searched the net over and I never found anything close.
Even with the info provided which I greatly appreciate, I still am lost, sorry, I'm just a dumb'ol country boy searching and not really knowing what to search for.
so far we know the sword is a 19th century sword, correct?

Will it ever be possible to know how this sword ended up in the mud of my home town of Pocomoke's river?
How it may have made it's way here. etc.
Was it dropped from Jeff's UFO? LOL J/K

Thanks Guys this is fascinating to me

Hi Tom,

I doubt you will ever find how it got there if you don't know where it started. Even then, the odds are against you. It is exactly these puzzles that keep most of us fascinated with these historic objects. Rent the movie 'The Red Violin'. Building up a story of the objects "life" is the goal of most of us here. I think you may have been bitten by the bug

.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2009, 05:20 PM

Hi Jeff,
Excellent suggestion on the foreign fraternity groups, which I had not even thought of. The immigration in those post Civil War years well into the 1920's was unbelievable in volume, with so many nationalities represented. I know that some of my own relatives were among them in the 1870's and 80's.
Great movie too!!! "The Red Violin" , I loved that movie and that really is what its all about, what an item has to tell you, the stories of its own history. As I watched that movie intently I realized that what we do is essentially antique weapon forensics

Tom,
Did you receive my email ?

All best regards,
Jim

Tom · 28th April 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Tom,
Did you receive my email ?

All best regards,
Jim

I did, Thank you and I will follow up as soon as I can.

katana · 28th April 2009, 09:21 PM

Here is a mention of the initials, unfortunately the links to the pictures do not work

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 29th April 2009, 02:13 PM

Excellent follow up there detective David!!!! Looks like Jeff's German based organization idea was well placed. It looks like the German imported blade combined with hilt components from sundry stocks from regalia outfitters and producers put together for this apparant organization of German American representation, is quite plausible. Since we know of at least one more example with this inscription and basic style, we know of the group in Columbus. Ohio in the 1890's. Key manufacturers based in Kalamazoo,Mich. Frank Henderson not unreasonably far away.

As mentioned, how it ended up at a riverbank in Maryland is anybody's guess. If the find location was near what is or what was a picnic or camping area, certainly events sponsored by or participated in by such groups in that time period seem possible.
In more wildly speculative thoughts, perhaps kids playing with grandpas old sword near the location ? Fearful thought, but not that it ever happened

none of us would ever have thought of such antics

Jeff and David, thank you so much for helping with this, and its always great hearing from you guys!!! Jeff, I hope it lets up a little bit on you soon.

All the best,
Jim

Tom · 2nd May 2009, 08:07 PM

well, I have been diligently searching the www for the group and other things I have found while researching the town and I have had no success at all. I just wanted to let all know I'm still working on this and haven't forgotten about the post.
I have a lot more info to work with now then what I started with thanks to y'all but it seams I'm spinning my wheels, I'm going to give it a couple days rest as my little brain is worn out right now.
I'll update soon I hope and for sure if I stumble upon something relevant.

Rick · 2nd May 2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent follow up there detective David!!!! Looks like Jeff's German based organization idea was well placed. It looks like the German imported blade combined with hilt components from sundry stocks from regalia outfitters and producers put together for this apparant organization of German American representation, is quite plausible. Since we know of at least one more example with this inscription and basic style, we know of the group in Columbus. Ohio in the 1890's. Key manufacturers based in Kalamazoo,Mich. Frank Henderson not unreasonably far away.

As mentioned, how it ended up at a riverbank in Maryland is anybody's guess. If the find location was near what is or what was a picnic or camping area, certainly events sponsored by or participated in by such groups in that time period seem possible.
In more wildly speculative thoughts, perhaps kids playing with grandpas old sword near the location ? Fearful thought, but not that it ever happened

none of us would ever have thought of such antics

Jeff and David, thank you so much for helping with this, and its always great hearing from you guys!!! Jeff, I hope it lets up a little bit on you soon.

All the best,
Jim

Or....WWI or II breaks out; "get that thing out of the house; throw it in the river !"

A mystery for sure .

Tom · 8th May 2009, 07:53 PM

nothing, I can't find one thing on this group

26th April 2009, 07:04 PM	#1
Tom Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 5	Help Identify this Sword First, hope I put this in the right section. I know nothing about swords so I'm just guessing here as to what this sword is. The history of the sword is; About 40 or more years ago my father came home with this wet muddy sword and pommel (?) He washed it off with a water hose and wiped down, it was in remarkable shape under the Pocomoke river mud. He (my father) had found this sword in the black sticky mud at a very low tide on the banks of the Pocomoke river. I have searched the www and I can't find anything on it, a friend found a similar picture but not exact, he then referred me to this site. the markings on the sword are as follow: on the blade is a design then initials? <<<((( D.O. S.R. )))>>> not those designs of course, that's a layout of how it's etched (?) those initials and design look to be raised. then up close to the handle (?) on the upper end of the blade is a oval shape with the following letter engraved around the oval. FR. NEEEF SOHNE SOLINGER this is the oval with the above words http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-016S-4.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-014S-3.jpg both sides of this tip look the same http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-011S-5.jpg this is where the initials with the design on each end of the initials lay on the blade http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-009S-5.jpg the number 77 stamped in here http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-008S-4.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-007S-6.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-006S-8.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...VC-005S-11.jpg http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m...MVC-002S-9.jpg

28th April 2009, 02:09 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi All, its been awhile , I can't add much to what Jim has already printed, but, its not a one off. Here is another in better shape. http://flintlocksarsenal.blogspot.com/2008/09/dosr.html I would be looking for a possible German-American Organization? I hope this helps Jeff Last edited by Jeff D; 28th April 2009 at 02:19 AM.

2nd May 2009, 08:07 PM	#13
Tom Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 5	no success well, I have been diligently searching the www for the group and other things I have found while researching the town and I have had no success at all. I just wanted to let all know I'm still working on this and haven't forgotten about the post. I have a lot more info to work with now then what I started with thanks to y'all but it seams I'm spinning my wheels, I'm going to give it a couple days rest as my little brain is worn out right now. I'll update soon I hope and for sure if I stumble upon something relevant.

27th April 2009, 07:02 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Most likely a ceremonial 19th century sword for some orden (Freemasons for example).

27th April 2009, 08:42 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	As Kisak has observed, this sword appears to be a fraternal type sword of the 19th century. Actually I have discussed this sword with Tom in some degree already, and asked him to post it here as I would like to initiate some interest in this very esoteric area of collecting. The sword hilt itself is of the general form that seems to have derived from military swords of the Civil War, in this case, the U.S. M1840 NCO sword, which had nearly identical hilt with knights head pommel, same style crossguard and fluted ivory grips. The Ames Sword co., who produced these, went into the production of the fraternal and Masonic style swords that developed from them in the years after the war. In addition to the well established Masonic groups and fraternal groups, there were many post military regimental organizations and patriotic groups. In a phone conversation today with Mr. Joe Marino, one of the authors of the comprehensive book "The American Fraternal Sword" (2008), we discussed this particular acronym, which does not correspond to any of the known groups catalogued thus far. In years of research, he and his co-authors compiled the collections and data that reflect the amazing numbers of these types of groups. It is known that outfitting companies and producers of regalia interchanged these almost universal hilt components, sich as the knights head pommel, crossguard and so on. The blades were often imported, such as this Solingen blade from latter 19th c. It would seem that the most likely means of discovering the title of the group indicated by this acronym, D.O.S.R. may come from research in local history of the area where this was found. Perhaps this was a preliminary title for a group later known under another title. As suggestions for the words, possibly something like democratic order of the sons of the revolution or to that effect. There seem to have been many similar titles. One of the key producers of fraternal type swords was the Frank Henderson Co. of Kalamazoo, Michigan from 1850-through 1893, when they began working with the Ames Co. This illustrates the possibility of using Ames components from the militia and non commissioned officers swords. While these swords have often been considerably disregarded as they are clearly ceremonial and costume elements rather than weapons, they have developed a distinct sector of thier own in collecting with their fascinating associations in Americana. One of the foremost authorities on Americana, Mr. Norm Flayderman, wrote the foreward in Mr. Marino's book, probably one of the most stellar endorsements for anyone studying this field. We'll continue researching!!! Welcome to our forum Tom! and thank you for posting this!! All very best regards, Jim

28th April 2009, 02:57 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	WOW! Hey Jeff, there you are, I thought the UFO's got ya!!!! Tom, I told ya, these guys are good!!!! All the best, Jim

28th April 2009, 05:20 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi Jeff, Excellent suggestion on the foreign fraternity groups, which I had not even thought of. The immigration in those post Civil War years well into the 1920's was unbelievable in volume, with so many nationalities represented. I know that some of my own relatives were among them in the 1870's and 80's. Great movie too!!! "The Red Violin" , I loved that movie and that really is what its all about, what an item has to tell you, the stories of its own history. As I watched that movie intently I realized that what we do is essentially antique weapon forensics Tom, Did you receive my email ? All best regards, Jim

28th April 2009, 09:21 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Here is a mention of the initials, unfortunately the links to the pictures do not work http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=uk Regards David

29th April 2009, 02:13 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Excellent follow up there detective David!!!! Looks like Jeff's German based organization idea was well placed. It looks like the German imported blade combined with hilt components from sundry stocks from regalia outfitters and producers put together for this apparant organization of German American representation, is quite plausible. Since we know of at least one more example with this inscription and basic style, we know of the group in Columbus. Ohio in the 1890's. Key manufacturers based in Kalamazoo,Mich. Frank Henderson not unreasonably far away. As mentioned, how it ended up at a riverbank in Maryland is anybody's guess. If the find location was near what is or what was a picnic or camping area, certainly events sponsored by or participated in by such groups in that time period seem possible. In more wildly speculative thoughts, perhaps kids playing with grandpas old sword near the location ? Fearful thought, but not that it ever happened none of us would ever have thought of such antics Jeff and David, thank you so much for helping with this, and its always great hearing from you guys!!! Jeff, I hope it lets up a little bit on you soon. All the best, Jim

8th May 2009, 07:53 PM	#15
Tom Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 5	nothing, I can't find one thing on this group