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27th January 2011, 05:16 PM
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#1 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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A Beautiful Vikingsword, 9th Century!
This was estimated 18,000 - 22,000 euro but failed to sell at auction with von Morenberg, Trento/Italy, 20 June 2010.
Overall length 92 cm. Please note the fine fishbone decoration on the upper section of the blade! Now wouldn't this perfect specimen make a fine and decent logo of our forum, instead of the poor Tuareg sword representing us now?! Jim? Lee? 'Nando?  Best, Michael |
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27th January 2011, 05:21 PM
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#2 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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The rest of the details.
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27th January 2011, 07:41 PM
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#3 |
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Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,639
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What an aesthetic issue you are addressing, Michl
 I would say that this is a magnificent sword, with an intrinsic value, admittedly greater than tat of a takouba. But in photogenic terms i guess that we have already seen in tis forum, mainly posted by you but not only, specimens more appealing, as more fit to make the cliche of a (forum) logo. This without forgetting that the takouba depicted in the forum is rather photogenic, apart from its relative intrisic value, other than cultural. We must not forget that (first), our mother forum has been originaly developed for an Ethnographic horizon and (second but not less important), the forum owner loves takoubas ; not that he doesn't like Vicking swords, though  A different approach would be that, if our sub-forums could also show their 'sub-logo', the boys from the keris Warung could select a traditional example of their taste and we, the European cousins, could choose an elegant Katzbalger, a Vicking spatha, or the like. But mind you, not (necessarily) the nicest valuable specimen, but the more 'logo-ish' one. Yours faithfuly |
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29th January 2011, 08:24 PM
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#4 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Hi 'Nando,
I thoroughly understand your well based arguments - no problem.  What really worries me is the fact that no one responds with something we could benefit from substantially ...  Best, Michl |
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31st January 2011, 12:33 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 189
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I think this sword did not sell for a good reason, and that it would not make an ideal logo because it is not a Viking sword. The patterns on the blade are all wrong, and the decoration of the pommel is suspect at best - a very nice fake, though.
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31st January 2011, 01:27 AM
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#6 | |
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Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,262
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Quote:
I like our logo just as it is .
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31st January 2011, 07:46 PM
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#7 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Quote:
That would indeed account for some questions! Best, Michael |
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1st February 2011, 09:45 AM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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similar pommel/cross patterns are published by Glosek, and this blade pattern I saw last year or 2009 on a viking blade at a London auction house.
No I don't think this is a fake. |
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1st February 2011, 11:57 AM
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#9 |
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EAAF Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 888
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Scary stuff
Jeff is not alone. The medieval sword fakes that are coming out now are so proficiently made that I believe the entire market has been poisoned by suspicions. I have seen examples for which I am not personally confident of authenticity in the very best sales venues including major London sales within the last decade. (I am otherwise unaware of the 2009 sale mentioned by cornelistromp and I am not commenting on that sale or sword). Would be buyers are advised to always attend the preview for close-up examination personally or by qualified proxy...
Anyway, Matchlock, the takouba logo that distresses you is on holiday until after the Timonium seminar. (That takouba does have an early European-made trade blade with sun, moon and stars.) Unfortunately, the version of the forums software we are using does not support different logos for each forum. I have found code hacks on the Internet that would override this and give one forum a custom logo or that would rotate a series of logos. However, I hesitate to try it as I do not really know what I am doing in some of that code and also, more importantly, because upgrading this board to a newer vbulletin version is under consideration and an upgrade would wipe all previous customizations anyway. |
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1st February 2011, 07:32 PM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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pommel:I found the same decoration/pattern published by Lech marek.
an 11thc piast T-type sword pommel. see picture Blade:the blade pattern i thought i saw before was on a sword auctioned by Bonhams 29 april 2010 however it is a kind of... different.see picture cross:the decoration/pattern on the guard must be something like the sword hilt from Busdorf Germany. see pic. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 2nd February 2011 at 07:25 AM. |
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2nd February 2011, 08:55 AM
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#11 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 189
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Yes, the Viking age artisans did decorate their equipment with tendrils and beasts, however on iron hilts (I think we can conclude the hilt is iron from the photo) decoration of this style was done via inlay, not carving. So we don’t even have to get into how the carving might be off, it shouldn’t be there to begin with, I can’t recall a single example from the era.
 Unfortunately, referencing another unprovenanced auction sword does not bolster the authenticity of the one in question, though these two are similar enough to make each other look bad. It does not look like the usual chevron pattern created in the Viking period, and it looks a lot like modern attempts to replicate the technique, with what appears to be the chevrons pointing in opposite directions on either side of the blade (indicating much more simple construction than most old blades) …and I’ve never seen an authentic blade with the chevron angle so stretched out. Attached is a photo of a more ‘normal’ chevron angle. The Bonham sword is even more nonsensical; for fundamental, functional reasons swords were made with the coarse, patterned material in the middle & had edges of very clean metal, going all the way back to Celtic times. And Leutlrit did not make his swords from pattern-welded material, so tis odd that they would reference his swords in the lot description.
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2nd February 2011, 12:14 PM
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#12 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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Quote:
that you have never seen it means nothing, Unless you have seen them all! (famous Oakeshott quote) (it does not mean in any case that it has never existed on Viking swordblades.) re: Quote:
This elaborate Viking sword hilt was found on the Isle of Man by two gentlemen with a metal detector. Here's how 24-Hour Museum describes the pommel (top part): Rather like a set of knuckles, the pommel (the top part of the sword) design is divided into 5 parts, or lobes, each with intricately carved designs. In between the lobes are sets of finely twisted silver wires – a technique seen a few times on artefacts from the Isle. kind regards, Last edited by cornelistromp; 2nd February 2011 at 05:12 PM. |
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2nd February 2011, 06:04 PM
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#13 |
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EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,139
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So the consensus is this is a fake. Well I was saying that this is in remarkable condition for being in "excavated condition".
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2nd February 2011, 06:14 PM
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#14 |
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EAAF Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 888
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My own experience in examining a number of Viking Age swords is very much in concordance with Jeff's observations.
That 'stretched chevron' pattern is, indeed, unexpected in Viking Age material; I have had this nagging déjà vu that I had seen somewhat similar patterns somewhere in pre-Viking material and at last I have placed this memory with the Danish/N. German Roman Iron Age bog finds and confirmed it by reviewing the marvelous recently published (2006) catalog of the Illerup Ådal finds. |
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3rd February 2011, 02:57 PM
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#15 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
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Cornelistromp,
Are the upper and lower guards you show made of Iron? From all appearances, they seem to be non-ferrous metal, as they show little sign of corrosion. Jeff was speaking of iron hilts being decorated with inlay/overlay, and was not speaking of non-ferrous hilts as it is well known that such hilts often have designs cut/cast into them. Some iron hilts Do show Light engraving, where they had originally a non-ferrous overlay, (Silver or whatever) then a design cut Through the overlay, into the iron beneath, to show contrast. Such engraving appears lightly done, compared to the heavy designs on the non-ferrous hilts. As always, if we use the words Never or Always,...we get into trouble! Best wishes, Richard. |
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3rd February 2011, 08:02 PM
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#16 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Hello Richard,
It's good to hear of you, my friend, and to learn from your both carefully and well balanced terms as ever. Best as always, Michael |
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3rd February 2011, 08:42 PM
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#17 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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Hi Richard,
you are right if I use the word never in a discussion with my wife, 9 of 10 times it means that Iam in serious trouble re:carving in iron in high relief. In the national museum in Helsinki are (plenty) viking Hilt examples of iron carving in high relief. what we know and have seen in viking swords is only "the top of the iceberg" there must have been 100's of thousands of swords. Unfortunately there are only a few % remaining for study, which are obviously far from representative of what was common in forging /patterns and of what was common in the use of certain type of decorations. best, |
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4th February 2011, 05:00 AM
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#18 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 803
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Michael,
I too am no expert on anything, and very far from it on Viking age swords! It appears one must be something of a politician, and say lots and yet say nothing, to avoid being wrong! Cornelistromp, Do you see the wisdom in my words aboove? I can get into trouble so easily if I say much at all! I must look at the iron hilts from Finland, and may learn something. Thank you for the direction! Richard. |
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4th February 2011, 08:29 AM
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#19 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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there is very interesting book published about central and eastern european viking swords;
early medieval swords from central and eastern Europe, dilemmas of an Archeologist and a student of arms. by Lech Marek isbn 83-229-2624-3 beautiful, interesting and scientifically correct approach of technological aspects of the blade construction, blade forms, inscriptions and techniques invocations etc. very recommendable best, |
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4th February 2011, 06:32 PM
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#20 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 189
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It is true we have only a tiny percentage of the era’s product to admire! The artisans of the Viking age were subject to the same limitations of technology, whims of fashion and economic restrictions as the rest of us, so you can make some pretty concrete predictions about the 99% of swords we have NOT seen from the time. Just as you will not find a Viking sword with an aluminum hilt (technology not available), you can be pretty sure an iron one with relief interlace carving is not going to show up – although technologically feasible, it was not the fashion of the time or what the economics of the situation would favor, inferring from the ones that have survived.
A few Finnish examples of Viking age swords can be found here: http://www.helsinki.fi/arkeologia/ra...t_viikinki.htm Though the photos are woefully small, you can see they were using the same techniques as the folks further South to render designs in a slightly different style.
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7th February 2011, 09:55 PM
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#21 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,057
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Hi Jeff,
you are indeed right iron ones in high relief are very difficult to find, I have seen them so please give me some time to find them the pattern of the blade I did find, it it closer then expected ,it was in Peirce p25. see pics, also a picture of the Scandinavian hilts I mentioned before. Kind regards, |
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