what kind of lance is this?

fernando · 3rd September 2006, 03:50 PM

Please help.
For some time i see this lance ( spear ), but i wonder.
The seller, a country shop, whose opinion is that haft and head are not from the original combination, still wants a heavy price for the set.
But it could be that the collar is now mounted upsidown, giving the set an auckward look, like the haft being a poor arrangement to put up a more saleable object.
However the collar and the two rings, mounted in a different position, could maybe show that the rattan haft and head actually belong one to each other.
The blade, some 8 to 9 inch long, though with very smooth and accurate lines, both flat and edge lines, shows a few signs of activity, looking with attention.
There is a piece of wood in the mid section, filling the collar part.
Sorry the pictures are more in quantity than in quality ... rather a challenge
to take keen pictures, without a tripod or the like, being one handed

.
Could anyone give a help at identifying this piece? Provenance, culture, genuinity, possible age?
Thanks a lot in advance
fernando

fernando · 3rd September 2006, 03:53 PM

another one

Justin · 3rd September 2006, 04:03 PM

Nice spear!
I'd say it is definately old/genuine,probably an Indonesian tombak ,others can probably tell you more specifics.

There is an off chance it might be SE Asian,I used to have a brass covered dha that had a similar pattern on it's grip to the design on the ferrule of your spear.
Unfortunately some patterns and designs get used over such vast areas,that the similar design may not mean much, it may still be an Indonesian piece and the pattern just a coincidence.

Tim Simmons · 3rd September 2006, 04:32 PM

I have one of these very similar and also post pictures here. The response was that it is Malayan or from Borneo. When I compere these pictures to mine, I think it is all original.

CharlesS · 3rd September 2006, 06:37 PM

Certainly Indo-Malay, but fact of the matter is that once you have narrowed it down to that, a more specific id becomes a little tricky, as similar spears/tombaks can be found all over the archipelago.

Based on the beefy-ness of this one, and on other similar ones I have and have seen, I'd say this one is from Borneo or Sumatra.

Should clean up to be a superb piece. Nice find!

Battara · 3rd September 2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Based on the beefy-ness of this one, and on other similar ones I have and have seen, I'd say this one is from Borneo or Sumatra.

I too was thinking Borneo.

Henk · 3rd September 2006, 07:47 PM

My guess is more the direction of Sumatra. I took a look in Van Zonneveld. Copper and silver fittings are shown in Sumatran spears. The chisseled motivs on the fittings give me more the idea of Sumatra. In Borneo it is mostly rattan that is used.
Could be a pamor blade, like you described the blade. Tim's blade is definitely a pamor blade.

fernando · 4th September 2006, 07:16 PM

Thank you all, for your postings. This will surely influence my decision on buying it, but again the price wanted is quite a disadvantage.
I would still say, Henk, that the blade aspect is rather regular, the steel looks to tight, although looking real. Apart from the few signs of lamination (?) i could figure, it seemed quite distant from having/achieving Tim's piece pamor ( if i catch the term ). Maybe it hasn't been etched in the origin ( if this makes sense ). Maybe not such an old piece, due to that, in my ignorant view.
But i will refrain from bothering you with further questions, consequent to the coments you kindly gave here, as this may not become an actual acquisition.
Nice piece Tim, is your haft in wood? and tapering towards the butt? is that a butt ferule?
Thanks all again, for being so much cooperative.
Tim, i will send you a PM, if you don't mind.
fernando

3rd September 2006, 03:50 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	what kind of lance is this? Please help. For some time i see this lance ( spear ), but i wonder. The seller, a country shop, whose opinion is that haft and head are not from the original combination, still wants a heavy price for the set. But it could be that the collar is now mounted upsidown, giving the set an auckward look, like the haft being a poor arrangement to put up a more saleable object. However the collar and the two rings, mounted in a different position, could maybe show that the rattan haft and head actually belong one to each other. The blade, some 8 to 9 inch long, though with very smooth and accurate lines, both flat and edge lines, shows a few signs of activity, looking with attention. There is a piece of wood in the mid section, filling the collar part. Sorry the pictures are more in quantity than in quality ... rather a challenge to take keen pictures, without a tripod or the like, being one handed . Could anyone give a help at identifying this piece? Provenance, culture, genuinity, possible age? Thanks a lot in advance fernando Attached Images

3rd September 2006, 03:53 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	another one Attached Images

3rd September 2006, 04:32 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	I have one of these very similar and also post pictures here. The response was that it is Malayan or from Borneo. When I compere these pictures to mine, I think it is all original. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd September 2006 at 04:42 PM. Reason: add pictures

3rd September 2006, 04:03 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Nice spear! I'd say it is definately old/genuine,probably an Indonesian tombak ,others can probably tell you more specifics. There is an off chance it might be SE Asian,I used to have a brass covered dha that had a similar pattern on it's grip to the design on the ferrule of your spear. Unfortunately some patterns and designs get used over such vast areas,that the similar design may not mean much, it may still be an Indonesian piece and the pattern just a coincidence.

3rd September 2006, 06:37 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Certainly Indo-Malay, but fact of the matter is that once you have narrowed it down to that, a more specific id becomes a little tricky, as similar spears/tombaks can be found all over the archipelago. Based on the beefy-ness of this one, and on other similar ones I have and have seen, I'd say this one is from Borneo or Sumatra. Should clean up to be a superb piece. Nice find!

3rd September 2006, 07:47 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	My guess is more the direction of Sumatra. I took a look in Van Zonneveld. Copper and silver fittings are shown in Sumatran spears. The chisseled motivs on the fittings give me more the idea of Sumatra. In Borneo it is mostly rattan that is used. Could be a pamor blade, like you described the blade. Tim's blade is definitely a pamor blade.

4th September 2006, 07:16 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Thank you all, for your postings. This will surely influence my decision on buying it, but again the price wanted is quite a disadvantage. I would still say, Henk, that the blade aspect is rather regular, the steel looks to tight, although looking real. Apart from the few signs of lamination (?) i could figure, it seemed quite distant from having/achieving Tim's piece pamor ( if i catch the term ). Maybe it hasn't been etched in the origin ( if this makes sense ). Maybe not such an old piece, due to that, in my ignorant view. But i will refrain from bothering you with further questions, consequent to the coments you kindly gave here, as this may not become an actual acquisition. Nice piece Tim, is your haft in wood? and tapering towards the butt? is that a butt ferule? Thanks all again, for being so much cooperative. Tim, i will send you a PM, if you don't mind. fernando