Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd June 2007, 08:31 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,219
Default German sword maker

Would somebody help?
I am convinced this is the mark of a German maker, but i am not able to figure out the letters after Schu ...
The figure looks like that of a Knight, even a Monarch.
Is there any Gentleman in this Forum able to decipher this mark ?
Thanks in advance
fernando
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando : 3rd June 2007 at 01:22 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 04:15 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,095
Default

C'mon guys!!! Somebody out there must have Bezdek or Imperial German Arms Makers!!

Fernando, the curiosity is killin' me, what type weapon is this on? You always find the most interesting stuff !!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 06:28 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,219
Default

Thanks for encouraging me, Jim. This isn't much of an ethno piece .
The seller said it could be a hunting knife ( sword ), but he wasn't so sure. The blade is 20 " long and 1 1/16" wide at the forte. To my eyes, it has the shape of a saber blade in short. The grip is dark horn, with a design often seen ... would you agree ?
You can see that this piece is numbered ( 194 ) but both number and maker's marks are not punctioned with accuracy, which doesn't favour quality.
If ever you feel like comenting on this piece, i would be so much obliged. Naturaly the same goes to any other member.
I still strugle to decipher the mark and therefore the maker.
BTW, the marks are found on the left side of the blade, if this means something.
Lots of health.
fernando
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 09:00 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,095
Default

Hi Fernando,
You're very welcome! I regret I do not have access to my resources on markings or I would gladly try to search out this marking and the name...so I hope other readers will help out.

The blade seems intact and not shortened so given the rather short length it could very well be a hunting sword blade, but the hilt is of course inconsistant, looking more like a shashka type mount. I'm not saying that's what this is, but certainly has the appearance. The blade appears 19th c. and of course Solingen work.

I would like to hear other opinions as well, and really look forward to the word on the marking.

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 09:26 PM   #5
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

The closest name in Bezdek that I can find is an A.W. Schulte & Co. a retailer in Gevelsburg 1900-1917. I have checked my other sources and cannot find anything closer nor can I find a similar mark. I will keep looking.

Sorry I can't help more
jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 10:08 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,219
Default

Thank you very much indeed, Jim. Your'e a great helper.
Hi Jeff, thanks a lot for your sugestion. I will be searching on "A.W.Schulte".
I have also had a sugestion for "Alfred Schule", from another source.
But it somehow looks to me that the letters after Schu are an L and a Z, as the name being Schulze or the like ... but that is only my fantasy. However i am surprised that the human figure above the name, a King with a sword, is not known to people familiar with German swordsmiths marks.
I hope that something on that area will come out any time.
Thanks again
fernando
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 10:48 PM   #7
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

I can find a Edward Schultze a retailer from Berlin and potsdam 1889-1892, A family of Schulder's in Solingen from the 1700-1800's (no Alfred), and Friedrich Schuller 1817.

Will keep looking
Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd June 2007, 11:15 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,095
Default

Yay! I hoped you would come in on this Jeff! I can always count on you !
I think the latter 19th c. seems pretty likely for this piece.

Fernando,
Glad I could offer some ideas on this, maybe the guys can come up with something they've seen similar. The world of hunting weapons gets pretty variant since these are civil weapons far outside any sort of standardization or regulation.

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2007, 11:04 PM   #9
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Thanks Jim,

I wish i could find more on Alfred but as you know many retailers and assemblers also stamped their names on the blades. Some had quite exaggerated boasts such as maker for king or queen such and such.

I will keep looking
Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th June 2007, 11:38 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,219
Default

I am so much pleased with all this interest.
But i must say i am a bit puzzled now. I heard from another source that the typeface ( font ) used in this inscription is DIN Normschrift, meaning that this writing standard was implemented around 1950, and so this piece can't be older than that. I confess this was a "bucket of cold water" for me . But, as we say over here, against facts there are no arguments. What would you say about this new evidence, Jim ? Plausible ?
Still ignoring the real name and actual mark, any how ... besides the surprise for hunting swords being so contemporary. I thaught these things ceased existing more than sixty years ago.
Thanks for all your envolvement Jeff.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2007, 12:23 AM   #11
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Hi Fernando,

If this is post 1950 you might want to ask these guys; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/index.php

Please keep us up todate on what you find.
Jeff

Last edited by Jeff D : 5th June 2007 at 12:33 AM.
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2007, 01:37 PM   #12
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,095
Default

Hi Jeff,
Thanks again for keeping up on this ! You're right about the German blade and sword industry, which became more complex toward to latter 19th c. and even more so with WWI and so on. They became extremely competitive and the claims to the fame of the early makers was very much like the marketing of the present, with emphasis on venerability (or is it vulnerability ? so the king, queen allusions were very much as you note .

Fernando,
I agree, it would be disappointing and I am inclined to think the hunting sword concept went out some time ago, despite the obvious clinging to anachronistic tradition often seen in upper echelon gentry. It seems the 'hunting knife' superceded these (I keep thinking of Crocodile Dundee holding up that enormous Bowie!!!!).
Actually my suggestion of hunting swords drew more toward the size of this weapon, and hangers of this size were of course used by many specialized units such as artillery, engineers etc.
I am very amazed by the observation on the font! which is very convincing and it does seem to be unusually large, though I honestly dont know much on fonts or typeface and would like to know more about resources on that!
Its amazing how diverse and multifaceted the study of weapons really is, we never know where clues might turn up.

As Jeff says, please keep us updated OK Fernando?

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2007, 10:15 PM   #13
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,219
Default

Hi Jim and Jeff.
Time to update you on this saga.
On the maker's mark, i still have nothing solid. As Jeff well sugested, it could not belong to the smith but to the trader, whom doesn't seem to be known enough to be regconized. There is also the problem of the faded name which, after several tests out there, is considered to be ALFRED SCHULTZ, but still not recorded anywhere so far. The human bust could be a Bishop and not a King, but also no evidence of its record.
As for type of this piece, let me tell you that, before it ended up identified, it was called respectively: hunting sword, infantry or police sidearm, Collins machete, russian shasqa, cutacha, rehilted WWI bayonet, Museum Replicas shasqua, and so on Quite an endurance
Then suddenly somebody comes up with a picture of a similar piece, posted in a thread four years ago, where the moderator asked an expert to identify.
The name of the piece is Machete do Monte.
The poster was not2sharp, the moderator was Bernard Levine ( bladeforums.com ) and the expert is Carter Rila.
As for the age, a different opinion dated that typeface around 1880, as also others sugested that the engraving could be a later work, so not necessarily representing the date of manufacturing of the piece.
In view of all this, i decided to go back to the seller and buy him something more peacefull The attached pictures show a piece much easier to atribute a manufacturer I just have to find out whether this is a machete or some kind of variation. The age, i hope is XIX century, until i hear or read otherwise. The grips would be horn. The guard and fittings are german silver ( this the term? ). The blade on this one is much thinner and wider, and is 14" long. It's good it keeps its leather scabbard.
Best regards
fernando
Attached Images
   
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th November 2020, 12:39 PM   #14
bvieira
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 108
Default

Hello,

Did not saw this thread earlier.

ALFRED SCHULTZ is a bladesmith and swordmaker, german, sec 19 mainly, he did some of the finest quality revivalist swords for palaces and castles. He also did edged weapons for real combat like knifes and military baynets. Their revivalist swords were done using the same procedures of the real ones, so they are all real weapons too, I have a medieval sword done by him I think you have saw it!

Regards,

Bruno vieira
bvieira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2020, 09:06 AM   #15
not2sharp
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 204
Default

Here is my original thread that Fernando mentioned:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ademark.257565/

N2s
not2sharp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:53 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.