BALI KERIS HILT IDENTIFICATION

asomotif · 3rd December 2007, 05:20 PM

Dear Forumites,

I recently bought this balinese keris hilt.
Brass with glass inlays and some item that is missing from his hand.

Can you help me, who is it and what is missing from his hand ?

Any idea on age would be nice too.

Henk · 3rd December 2007, 07:19 PM

Arjan,

This figure, Bahu, is holding a leave shaped fan in his hand. On the fan is a small stone. Look at this one.

Rick · 3rd December 2007, 08:11 PM

Lots of examples in this thread .
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bayu

20th Century is about as far as I am willing to guess .

asomotif · 4th December 2007, 11:55 AM

Thanks Rick,

I knew this thread, but did not see the additions of other websites yet.

Still however no exact info which god or demon is depicted.
Any help ?

Best regards,
Willem

Rick · 4th December 2007, 12:00 PM

Hi Willem,

This hilt is probably a representation of Bayu .

asomotif · 4th December 2007, 04:25 PM

OK, well noted.
So a small fan would be in order...

best regards,
Willem

asomotif · 6th December 2007, 09:07 AM

Ps. I found some info on Bayu.
Looks like there are 9 Bayu brothers with long thumb nails.

Quote:

They were 9 figures, called the ‘Bayu brothers’. The ‘Poleng" design depicting the essentials of human lust, the exercise and ability to restrain lust is a basic attitude to achieve a good and correct life. All the Bayu’s brother (Tunggal Bayu) had Kuku Pancanaka – strong and longer thumb-nails, if necessary, to execute bad people.

This reminds me of Bima, the Pandawa brother who also is in urgent need of a manicure.

I think I will have to do some more googling on Ramyana and Mahabarata to get a grip on these different gods

A. G. Maisey · 6th December 2007, 06:06 PM

Forgive me asomotif, but you may need a wee bit more involvement and time than to google net sources to enable you to accurately name Balinese deities.

Although the physical forms of Balinese deities follow a more or less general appearance to mainline Hindu deities, there are many variations and inconsistencies in the way in which they are represented. The form can vary from artist to artist and time to time. Some are easy to guess at, such as Ganesha and Hanuman. Others are virtually impossible to name accurately.

Over many years I have read extensively in this area, and I have yet to find a text that I could recommend on the subject.

I normally prefer to avoid trying to give names to specific Balinese representations of a deity because I have been present during conversations with mature and knowledgeable Balinese men , who might produce ten opinions between four or five men.

Giving names to figures on Bali keris handles is very, very difficult and more often likely to be incorrect than correct.

Marcokeris · 7th December 2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Ps. I found some info on Bayu.
Looks like there are 9 Bayu brothers with long thumb nails.

This reminds me of Bima, the Pandawa brother who also is in urgent need of a manicure.

I think I will have to do some more googling on Ramyana and Mahabarata to get a grip on these different gods

Sorry Asomotif
Maybe my sight is not good, but from the picture i don't see a weapon like a fingernail's prolungation (korambi ??) in the Bali hilt (...I have always seen Bima with this feature so i don'tthink the hilt can be Bima).
An help for identification could comes from unknown lost object in the hand (a weapon?, a flower?, a club'?..)
Marco

asomotif · 7th December 2007, 11:40 AM

Dear Mr. Maisey,

Thank you for this information.
Googling is indeed not the correct word.

Good to know that this area is difficult and that even experts do not share the same opinion. So for the time being it is best to enjoy the beauty of these hilts rather than hoping to get a grip on the various names and styles.

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2007, 10:47 PM

Possibly the most satisfactory approach is simply to enjoy the art.

As I said, some figures in Balinese iconography are unmistakable---twalen, hanuman, ganesha---nobody argues about these, and maybe a few others, but when you get the craftsmen, who make these figures, mixing up attributes, and the Balinese idea of what is correct for a particular figure being different in any case from what might apply outside Bali, the whole thing just becomes too difficult. Then you can get a situation, particularly with an old piece where the carving might represent a particular person.

Yes, it is difficult. Somebody may have come to terms with it, and there may be something in print that can tell us how to interpret all these Balinese figures, but if there is, I have not been able to find it in either English or Indonesian.We can move a little way into the puzzle by referencing a great number of texts, but then you come across contradictions, and ask yourself just who is correct.

To be frank, I've just about given up on ever being able to get a thorough understanding of exactly who and/or what the various Balinese figures found in keris handles, and statuettes, represent. I've got a half understanding, but that's all.

3rd December 2007, 05:20 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	BALI KERIS HILT IDENTIFICATION Dear Forumites, I recently bought this balinese keris hilt. Brass with glass inlays and some item that is missing from his hand. Can you help me, who is it and what is missing from his hand ? Any idea on age would be nice too. Attached Images

3rd December 2007, 07:19 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Arjan, This figure, Bahu, is holding a leave shaped fan in his hand. On the fan is a small stone. Look at this one. Attached Images

3rd December 2007, 08:11 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Lots of examples in this thread . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bayu 20th Century is about as far as I am willing to guess .

4th December 2007, 11:55 AM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Thanks Rick, I knew this thread, but did not see the additions of other websites yet. Still however no exact info which god or demon is depicted. Any help ? Best regards, Willem

4th December 2007, 12:00 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Hi Willem, This hilt is probably a representation of Bayu .

4th December 2007, 04:25 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	OK, well noted. So a small fan would be in order... best regards, Willem

6th December 2007, 06:06 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Forgive me asomotif, but you may need a wee bit more involvement and time than to google net sources to enable you to accurately name Balinese deities. Although the physical forms of Balinese deities follow a more or less general appearance to mainline Hindu deities, there are many variations and inconsistencies in the way in which they are represented. The form can vary from artist to artist and time to time. Some are easy to guess at, such as Ganesha and Hanuman. Others are virtually impossible to name accurately. Over many years I have read extensively in this area, and I have yet to find a text that I could recommend on the subject. I normally prefer to avoid trying to give names to specific Balinese representations of a deity because I have been present during conversations with mature and knowledgeable Balinese men , who might produce ten opinions between four or five men. Giving names to figures on Bali keris handles is very, very difficult and more often likely to be incorrect than correct.

7th December 2007, 11:40 AM	#10
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Dear Mr. Maisey, Thank you for this information. Googling is indeed not the correct word. Good to know that this area is difficult and that even experts do not share the same opinion. So for the time being it is best to enjoy the beauty of these hilts rather than hoping to get a grip on the various names and styles.

7th December 2007, 10:47 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Possibly the most satisfactory approach is simply to enjoy the art. As I said, some figures in Balinese iconography are unmistakable---twalen, hanuman, ganesha---nobody argues about these, and maybe a few others, but when you get the craftsmen, who make these figures, mixing up attributes, and the Balinese idea of what is correct for a particular figure being different in any case from what might apply outside Bali, the whole thing just becomes too difficult. Then you can get a situation, particularly with an old piece where the carving might represent a particular person. Yes, it is difficult. Somebody may have come to terms with it, and there may be something in print that can tell us how to interpret all these Balinese figures, but if there is, I have not been able to find it in either English or Indonesian.We can move a little way into the puzzle by referencing a great number of texts, but then you come across contradictions, and ask yourself just who is correct. To be frank, I've just about given up on ever being able to get a thorough understanding of exactly who and/or what the various Balinese figures found in keris handles, and statuettes, represent. I've got a half understanding, but that's all.